40-80 hand

[Clarkmeister]

Here's a loose games hand in honor of Ed's book being available now. I could make a case for different actions on every postflop street. I think SinCityGuy was watching the game at the time of this hand, not sure.

Game is somewhat loose, somewhat passive. 5 limpers including the SB to me in the BB with 7h6d. I check.

Flop: Kd 7d 2d. SB checks, I bet. EP calls, MP calls, LP folds and button raises. Button is very aggressive, particularly on the flop, but is pretty straightforward from there. SB folds, I call, EP and MP call, LP folds. 4 to the turn for 7 BBs.

Turn: 5h. I bet, EP calls, MP folds, Button calls. 3 to the river for 10 BBs.

River: 5c. I check.

[Steve Giufre]

The turn seems like the debatable street. I could see an argument for checking, but given the description of your oppenent I think a bet is fine too. What were you planning to do if he raised the turn?

[J.A.Sucker]

Fire another bet on the river. I would hate to have to call the button here with other folks behind me. I don't think you'll be raised here.

[Robb]

Hi Clarkmeister,

I agree - lots of different lines you could take.

Flop: A flop bet can take it down often enough for this to be the best route. Merits to cr-ing a late position bettor too.

Turn: I often check here heads-up not wanting to pay more for my flush draw because if I bet and am raised that usually means I'm behind. I guess you could bet and fold to a raise but I'm usally hanging around for the 4th diamond.
However, here it's 3-way. I like a bet here and fold to
1) raise by EP and call by button --meaning 1 of them has a higher diamond.
2) call by EP and raise by button --for the same reason.


River: I think this street is most clearly correct though still close. Thoughts on how often a 7 would lay-down to your river bet?

Regards,
Jamie

[MarkD]

Why not just check/fold the flop?

You have 6 opponents, middle pair and a 6 high diamond draw. This seems like a bad spot as I would think one of my 6 opponents has a king or a better diamond draw and I don't think I can win this hand on the flop often enough with this number of opponents.

If I had 3-4 opponents I like the bet better. But who am I to question.

[Coilean]

I suspect from his description of the player and the game that Clark may be reserving the right to fold for further river action, but I could be wrong. A reraise here on the flop looks viable considering no one has yet called the first raise once it gets back to Clark, although it seems debatable whether or not it would get him heads up with the button often enough to be clearly profitable.

[Martin Aigner]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: A flop bet can take it down often enough for this to be the best route. Merits to cr-ing a late position bettor too

[/ QUOTE ]

How often will the flop bet take down the pot for 1 single bet against that many players? I´ve played 40/80 only a couple of times and consider myself by no means an expert, but I´d be surprised if one should expect a win rate of more than 5-10% on the flop.

I think that the better option would be to check/fold if an EP bets and there is 1 or more caller in front of you or checkraise if a LP bets.

Just my thoughts.

Best regards

Martin Aigner

[Inthacup]

If you 3-bet the flop, would it have cleared out one/both of the guys between you and the button? If I thought it would clear out any diamond below something like a Jack/Queen, I like a 3-bet on the flop.

I'm interested to hear what range of hands you put your opponents on after 1. the flop and 2. the turn action.

I put button on probably a diamond higher than yours. I'd think he'd have a king less than 20% of the time. I don't think the limpers would have kings either due to 1. their PF limp and 2. their flop call but some more specifics on their looseness(aggressive or passive?) would help narrow that some.

Cup

[The Dude]

I'm check-folding this flop. With 3 opponents I'd usually bet out, 4 it's borderline, but against 5 others you don't win often enough.

Out of curiosity, do you ever fold?

[34TheTruth34]

Why did you not reraise the flop given the description of the button and the presence of the two callers?

If one of the early limpers called your flop bet with K9s, KT, or A7 with no diamond, they would be hard pressed to call your flop three-bet. And you might get someone with the J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, or 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif to fold.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that not three-betting the flop seems inconsistent with betting out and trying to win it right there. I'm sure you had a good reason though.

The people saying to check-fold the flop are crazy. You probably have the best hand and might be able to muscle your way through if you don't.

[Robb]

Hi Martin,

[ QUOTE ]
I´ve played 40/80 only a couple of times and consider myself by no means an expert, but I´d be surprised if one should expect a win rate of more than 5-10% on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd rate it a tick higher -- 10-15%. But it's definitely low. I'd probably follow the same course of action on the flop that I layed out for the turn. Namely -- fold to a call and raise/or a raise and call. However....

[ QUOTE ]
I think that the better option would be to check/fold if an EP bets and there is 1 or more caller in front of you or checkraise if a LP bets.


[/ QUOTE ]

You make a good point because .....if leading out and cr-ing a late position bettor are close to being equally good then cr-ing is probably better because sometimes you gain info (EP action) for 0 bets that allows you to fold vs. the [1 bet, bad info, fold]. Especially if leading out is actually closer to 5-10%.

At first I thought betting out makes the hand easier to play. But now I think the little wimp inside me was really thinking, "It makes it easier to fold." because there aren't a lot of turn cards that I'm going to like. Hmm, I'll consult my psychiatrist on that flop bet and get back to you.

Regards,
Jamie

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
You probably have the best hand

[/ QUOTE ]

BS. You have 5 opponents and a pair of 7's 6 kicker and either 5 or 6 opponents (I'm not sure I'm reading the hand correctly). Even if you do have the best hand, which I think is unlikely, the entire field can draw out on you with close to half the deck.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Out of curiosity, do you ever fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if I can help it. Personally, i think most non-fish fold way too easily postflop.

[Clarkmeister]

You've been reading too much Middle Limit Holdem.

[MarkD]

I never did finish it (not because I didn't think it was good but because I'm lazy).

I'm willing to be convinced otherwise and will be following this thread closely but I don't think your flop play is as clear as everyone else seems to and I wouldn't be playing on this flop very often.

I think Martin Aigner's line is better. If you check and an EP player bets and gets called in multiple spots playing on would be bad IMO. If it gets checked to the button CR'ing would be good.

[Clarkmeister]

I'll post more detailed thoughts this evening, but the board texture is such that betting is better than checkraising. I would checkraise on a more coordinated board such as Td6d5d.

[MarkD]

Yah I know you like to wait to post your reasons so I will wait, but you seem to imply you almost never fold this flop. I find that incredible.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
you seem to imply you almost never fold this flop. I find that incredible.

[/ QUOTE ]

With a pair and a flush draw, it's pretty fair to say its rare that I fold.

How about this Mark? You limp behind two players with 8d8h. The BB bets into a Kd7d2d flop. EP calls, the action is on you with two players still to act. What do you do? Aggressively betting into boards like this really puts people in difficult spots without either a King or the Ad.

[MarkD]

I'm still inclined to fold here on this board, but I know I've raised in that spot in the past. I don't think I've ever given this type of situation enough thought though and certainly when I raised I didn't spend the time on it to really cement the play into my head.

I don't see folding in either of these spots as being too far wrong. I would certainly raise if I had JJ-QQ and most likely TT though.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still inclined to fold here on this board, but I know I've raised in that spot in the past. I don't think I've ever given this type of situation enough thought though and certainly when I raised I didn't spend the time on it to really cement the play into my head.

I don't see folding in either of these spots as being too far wrong. I would certainly raise if I had JJ-QQ and most likely TT though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but they kind of don't count because you'd have raised with them preflop. And I'd definitely play this differently in a raised pot.

[J.A.Sucker]

I agree totally with the flop action, but I think the river bet deserves more attention. I think it's a good enough possibilty that you have the button beat but not one of the guys in the middle, but they may not be willing to put in action with other behind them (something like 8d8c or the like). The pot's too big to give up on.

[Clarkmeister]

I'm inclined to agree with you, but I wanted to see what others said first.

[Coilean]

If giving up for 1 bet on the river isn't really an option then the real question seems to be how often the remaining players will check behind with a hand that beats yours. I can't see you getting paid off by multiple hands and winning very often, so you should probably only check the river if you think there's better than a 50% chance someone will check a better hand behind you. It seems pretty unlikely a river bet will be raised at all here, much less by a worse hand, so I wouldn't worry much about those permutations.

[Mikey]

"Turn: I often check here heads-up not wanting to pay more for my flush draw because if I bet and am raised that usually means I'm behind. I guess you could bet and fold to a raise but I'm usally hanging around for the 4th diamond."

You are going to hang around for a 4th diamond?? If it does come are you going to check and call to induce someone to bluff or are you going to fire right out and represent the Ace of diamonds?

I'm pretty sure that Clark doesn't want to see a diamond.

[Robb]

Hi Mikey,

[ QUOTE ]
"Turn: I often check here heads-up not wanting to pay more for my flush draw because if I bet and am raised that usually means I'm behind. I guess you could bet and fold to a raise but I'm usally hanging around for the 4th diamond."

You are going to hang around for a 4th diamond?? If it does come are you going to check and call to induce someone to bluff or are you going to fire right out and represent the Ace of diamonds?

[/ QUOTE ]

To be clear I was referring to a hypothetical heads-up situation. i.e. if I were to bet the turn, all fold, and button raised. If that were the scenario...... then I'm not sure why calling the turn would be bad. CM said button was straight forward. I don't think that always means 'Flush' when Button raises the turn. Button can interpret my bet to mean he and I have the same hand: a King that doesn't want the turn checked through. Therefore Button raises his likely better kicker. I would have odds to call even if the Button has a set.

Now if Button's traits are such that it's highly likely that he has a flush then that's a different story.

As far as what to do if a fourth diamond comes-- I think betting out is best. A Qd or lower diamond will usually not raise. If raised I would fold. It would be pretty rare to be raised by a non-flush. And other hands will sometimes call but not bet if checked to.

But like I mentioned..... in the actual hand, I would have folded to a Button raise on the turn due to the presence of the other player.

Regards,
Jamie

[elysium]

hi clark

great post. clark, i rarely see my recommended course of action advised here. i like the flop bet, a little. there are too many opponents in the field to say that betting is always correct. you know that. but what i recommend doing after the button raises, is folding. i sometimes recommend raising and dropping on the flop to a 3-bet. it's dangerous advice because it's bound to be misapplied in the exactly wrong situation and at the worst possible time. FWIW however, this is the reason we all can advise, and have some ev no less from those who attempt to apply it. which may be why we all write. but dang it clark, i like doing the bet and drop thing when i probe negatively.

in this situation, i think you've found a flush draw somewhere, and a moderate chance of drawing dead, or needing runner, runner. in this spot, bailing out has its virtues. it provides you with a little cover later on in the game when you come in powerfully, and unsettles the holder of any powerhouse you've shown strength against, but then quite unexpectantly just as suddenly and surely dropped to, when he surely expected you to call. it gives you a little unpredictability in the right places, and when i find that the strength shown against my early strength will also cause me to play sub-optimally even if i do improve, and has therefore also effected my implied odds, well, although since as always, understanding when the situation is correct to fold even though it doesn't appear to be mathematically requires skills beyond the scope of your post, i think folding is correct provided it achieve results in some other area of my game. no, you will never hear that here because of the high potential of its misapplication. but if you were asking me 'when is such a fold correct?', i'd point to this post and say 'this looks like a good candidate.'. folding on the flop after the button raises, should at least be strongly considered here. there are better situations in which this type of fold is more appropriate, and usually these situations entail your raising and getting 3-bet in a short-handed. but this hand can qualify, especially if you think that your opponents are guessing your what action you might take with a little better accuracy than usual. that drop throws them clark. but you need to trailing badly, and you know that. are you trailing badly enough to let this one go here? well, if you throw in the flush draw, i think you are. i know clark. for crying out loud, that's the very reason you're calling the raise in the first place. i know. but clark....think a minute. think. since you might be behind in 2 places, doesn't that draw figure negatively here? FWIW, call it pseudo-science, whatever, dang it, i think it does figure negatively. no proof. and this is my opinion only. but i just don't think that being against a flush draw helps you out here. i could say that it could cause one or other of your opponents to meekly call with a stronger hand until it fails to complete. and then he could be meekly calling for other reasons thereafter. he might not like betting expensive. but i just don't like this one clark. say what you will. when the button raises, i like to fold here.

[Paluka]

I don't really understand why you don't 3 bet the flop but you decide to bet out on the turn. It seems like 3 betting the flop could force out hands such as 88 with no diamond.
I assume you were planning on folding if raised on the turn?

[Clarkmeister]

I checked, the river is checked around. The button showed Ad6c, i flipped over my hand and the 3rd player mucked. MHIG.

I didn't 3-bet the flop because the way the game had been, it wasn't going to get anyone out. I mean, what the heck did EP have without a king, seven or the ace of trump?? Besides, I may well be wanting to fold on the turn. I thought playing it safe with the stop and go, representing a crappy king was the best way to get people out of the pot. I would have folded if the button had raised the turn, but this button would only do that if I was badly beaten.

I thought I should have bet the river just on the off chance someone had a 7 also. A king certainly isn't folding, but it doesn't look like ones out there either. Plus, why give them a free look at my hand?

I think the flop bet is pretty routine with a board this spread out, as I mentioned elsewhere in the thread.

[doggin]

You bet out on the turn after the button raised the flop?!

You with middle pair but a K and three diamonds on the
table.
Would you have folded the turn on a raise?

[glen]

In terms of 88 no d, the stop and go will make that hand fold on the turn, but maybe pick up another sb on the flop, no?

[3rdCheckRaise]

...but if they don't fold often enough we call them fish? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
...but if they don't fold often enough we call them fish? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think most fish play way more optimally postflop than most people give them credit for.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
In terms of 88 no d, the stop and go will make that hand fold on the turn, but maybe pick up another sb on the flop, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not convinced that the stop and go makes hands like this fold after they were willing to call on the flop. I also think that the stop n go opens you up to getting raised on the turn when you really don't want to get raised. You could easily fold on the turn when you have the outs to call.

[DcifrThs]

ah the thin veil of complexity that underlies the aparant simplicity that draws those to the felt battlefield.

clark, as i may or may not have told you yesturday, you have taught/shown me more this weekend than you will ever know. whether you meant to or not i must thank you again and will be posting in the SS and micro limit sections in your honor to help in some small degree as you've helped me...

i also now realize how futile it is to IMPROVE on the internet alone.

that being said, on with the hand.

on the flop, if the button is who i think it is, then it just depends on who is between you and him but a checkraise is a very viable option. but WHO is in between is key b/c they might realize you're c-r'ing light ... but hopefully won't 3bet with a hand they were waiting to c-r HIM with. the bet is still not bad and possibly quite good. the 3bet is also a good option b/c it puts MORE pressure on than a c-r would but also reduces the probability of heads up action here (albeit to what degree i can't say).

on the turn you bet. it is this bet that makes me shudder on the river. i see that there are a LOT of responses here to this one and i probably won't get to them all but i'm assuming many of them will have to be critical of your river check. you almost certainly should bet. think of ALL the hands that will fold between you and the button but that the button will call against you and lose. must must bet.

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
...but if they don't fold often enough we call them fish? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

you got it. now answer your own question.

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm still inclined to fold here on this board, but I know I've raised in that spot in the past. I don't think I've ever given this type of situation enough thought though and certainly when I raised I didn't spend the time on it to really cement the play into my head.

I don't see folding in either of these spots as being too far wrong. I would certainly raise if I had JJ-QQ and most likely TT though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but they kind of don't count because you'd have raised with them preflop. And I'd definitely play this differently in a raised pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

yea, lol...like not at all /images/graemlins/wink.gif

thats a fold in the bb.

-Barron

[MarkD]

Yah, after I posted it didn't make any sense so I didn't respond because I would raise every one of those hands.

Also you fold this if there is a raise and you still expect the pot to be 6 handed? I would call in a heartbeat getting 11:1 in the BB.

As the hand played out I'm still inclined to check this flop. I see I am one of two people whereas a very distinguished list advocate playing on so I do believe I am probably mistaken but I have not seen convincing evidence that I need to keep playing when I get such a poor flop in a smallish pot with many opponents.

[rory]

Hi Clark,

I don't really like the way this hand went down.

I think I check fold this flop most of the time, except when it is checked around to that aggressive button who bets, then I raise. It's too easy to be slightly ahead or very behind in this hand-- also if you are against passive players, you might not see a raise from a K on this flop and so you won't know where you are with your bet.

But If I chose to bet the flop I would check fold the turn after getting that many callers and a raise. You are probably against a bigger flush draw and a king somewhere within that mix of hands.

Checking the river is great. I think if it is bet on the river that I will call but not overcall.

-rory

[3rdCheckRaise]

I agree with you on that one, sir. /images/graemlins/cool.gif