When you know your opponent really well

I'm not back yet, but yesterday I spent the day with some friends. The occassional poster "sooga" felt like it was okay if he tagged along, and we started talking about a hand we once played together. I said I'd post it to get feedback.


Sooga is a very tight player with no imagination. I'm not saying that to be mean, I've told him that constructively before. As such, he's fairly easy to read. It boggles the mind that anybody would ever call one of his bets. For only being 22, he is a rock.


And, he's on my immediate left in a 9-18 game a few months back. Two players are posting in middle position, and they check their option. I have A5s in the cutoff, so I raise, since nobody has willingly limped yet. I'm hoping to create some dead money and buy the button.


Foiled. Sooga 3-bets me on the button. Now, I'm posting this to get advice on both my play, and on Soogas. So, I'm going to say right now that he had AKo. All fold to me, and I call.


This is before the new rake structure at commerce, so there was 9.3 small bets, or 4.6 big bets in the pot.


I tell him I check blind (Gosh, Tommy's right...I check blind, and I have an A in my hand /images/smile.gif). And before the flop comes, I throw 6 chips into the pot ala a checkraise. I pick them up, hold them in my extended hand, then block my eyes so I can't see the flop, and I stare at Sooga. Sooga also checks.


For the record, the flop came 2 4 6, rainbow, one spade.


Turn is a red ace, I check, Sooga bets, I call. Sooga is unimaginitive. he doesn't have 57, 35, 64, QQ, 99, AA, 26, or anything else like that. He has AKo or MAYBE AQs (this is what i was thinking to myself). But I called the turn bet because I was getting 5.67:1 when I had 7 outs (four 3's and three 5's) for a 44:7 or 5.28:1 shot. Without implied odds, this is a correct call, if I'm good enough to dump in on the river when unimproved.


Well, the river is a 3, and I checkraised Sooga. he will never let me forget it. See, I kinda sorta have taught Sooga a few things. I think he looks up to me as a sort of mentor. He respects my game, and I just pissed him off something fierce.


I should note, that after checkraising him, I gave him back one bet, because he's a good friend. I just wanted the impact of a checkraise. More sting, ya know.


But yesterday, we were discussing this hand, and I chastised him for betting the river.


And that is really the crux of this post. Normally, his bet is a no-brainer. He can't put me on two pair or a 5. When I just call the turn, he has to put me on Ax, where x is not a 2, 4, 6, or K.


But more importantly, I felt that he should know that I knew exactly what he had, so there's no value in his bet. Do you guys agree? The only time I'd call with a worse hand is if I had AQ, and then I may even throw it away.


Any thoughts on this?


Thanks,


Josh

I resent being called unimaginative. Often times when I find that I am in the unfortunate position of being seated at the same table as Josh I will imagine that I am anywhere but there.


As to the hand, I still defend my actions. I knew that Josh was on a blind-steal, and I know that he knew that I knew that. That said, I could be raising with any number of hands, including any two big cards, any mid pocket pair, pretty much anything. I figured that Josh knew that I knew that he was on a blind steal, so that if he had an actual late-position raise hand like an AJ, he could still call me down. Did I mention that I don't particularly like Josh? Well if I did, then that's not true. I hate him.

Sooga's my boy...I love that kid...


Here's the thing. Sooga is very unimaginitive in his play. If he had a middle pocket pair, he'd bet the flop, period, and he'd likely check the turn.


Sooga has never 3-bet a player who he thought was on a blind steal.


Seriously, when you know that your opponent knows you this well, who bets AK on the river here?


Josh

i think its time to lay off......hes the one still in the action, is he not?

Nope.


Nobody will ever accuse you of having informed opinions, will they?


Josh

Yea, unfortunately I'm not still in the action, unless you count those high-stakes $.50/$1 tables at Paradise Poker 'in the action'. As Mike McDermott would say, 'I'm off it'. I got kinda sick of old 'going to the casino, losing two racks of $1, $2, or $3 chips, and then going home a big loser' routine. Instead, I just stay at home, play my $0.50/$1 tables, and listen to Josh's stories of losing multiple racks of $3, $5, or $10 chips. I personally think it's a lot better financially this way. Well, for me anyway.

I don't think his bet was so bad. Debatable yes. Perhaps a check is better given the factors you say. But given the fact there were a couple of posters, your stealing requirements should go up. I wouldn't put someone on a steal with low cards or marginal high cards in that spot. (Hard to put anyone on low connectors on a steal) I could easily see you having less than A-Q, maybe A-9 through A-J or something. I also think you would be hard pressed to fold A-T or better on the river for one bet. If you say Sooga is tight and unimaginative and you have told him this, he might bet T-T - K-K the same way on the river, getting you to fold a marginal ace. Sometimes tight players will surprise you since they know you will trust them to have a certain hand. Then his river bet has value.


I would have bet the flop in Sooga's shoes though. And I wouldn't have given him his bet back. :-)

I've just gotten finished filing my brief in the case of Malmuth vs. Brier, do I now have to take up Gummy Worm vs. Sooga? /images/smile.gif


Lots of times I figure a guy probably knows what I have, or close enough, yet they call anyway, figuring there's a chance they're wrong and the pot odds justify calling. When Sooga bet the river, this put (by my fuzzy math) $148 in the pot, so you'd be getting over 8:1 to call. So your read only has to be wrong 1 time in 9 for a call to be correct on your part. He knows this and thus I think he bet properly for value.


From his standpoint, with A-K, given the action (check the flop, call the turn), the only hand he could put you on is, as you indicate, A-x, and if I'm him, I'm gonna bet too, figuring you're gonna call if the "x" is big enough, which, considering you raised pre-flop, I'm gonna figure is indeed big enough.


BTW, it always looks bad when you give a guy a bet back at the table for everyone to see.

Well, you seemed to think that this guy idolizes you, when in fact he hates your guts.


Talk about informed opinions.

Damn. That's cold.


Here's how I read that: "I'm posting a message to a poker forum to get expert advice on how best to fuck over my friend, here."


No wonder the kid can't take a damn pot down - if a friend he's had since before either of you sat at a poker table is check-raising his ass on the river with a hand that he mistakenly discounted as a possibility, he'll be playing scared money at any limit and doubting himself constantly.


What did this post really show? Yeah, he misread you. He thought that you might be calling the turn without the straight potential. Given your play, you HAVE to have either the 3 or the 5, since 2 pair or AK would see you raising the turn like a madman.


He didn't read them as scare cards, because he put you on a weaker ace than his. AJo - I've seen you play that a lot. But you wouldn't have called with that, since you only would have had 3 outs to beat the hand you knew he had. You'd either have raised it on the turn to buy it at some point, or folded immediately. Against Sooga, you're folding it since you know he'll call you down making you for a friendly educational bluff.


Sooga - play the flop stronger with AK heads up. Figure that Josh is raising you on the turn if he does have 2 pair, and isn't even calling with a weak ace. YES - muck the AK on the river when he check-raises you. Do not play in a game against Josh.


Josh - next time you need $81 from a friend, gimme a call, as opposed to killing Sooga's spirit.


~D

Just to clear some stuff up, Josh and I are in fact friends. No, actually I wouldn't go that far, I'd say more like 'buddies'. We have a classic love/hate relationship. He loves poking fun at me, and I hate it. But I've known this hobbledehoy since '96, and although I'm not a better man for it, it does have its benefits. For example, while talking to him on the phone, I can vicariously play poker and lose mounds and mounds of chips, from the comfort of my own home. Can't beat that! But, I do have to say that I did NOT learn my poker from Josh, but rather from the rest of the posters here at twoplustwo. When I play Josh, all strategy goes out the table. If the board is AKQJ9 with 4 suits, and I have 22 with none of the suit, and he checks to me, I'll bet out. And if he checkraises me, I'll call anyway. Why? Cuz it's Josh. He's the kind of guy that wakes up in the morning just itching to make a move on me, so I'm pretty much never gonna fold. It makes games funner that way /images/smile.gif But Josh is a buddy, and it's a shame I don't play poker anymore /images/wink.gif

wow are you really that naive man? theyre joking around. duh.

Andy -


Wow, somebody who actually answered my question! Thanks.


But you have to understand something about Sooga...I honestly think that this was the first time in his life he 3-bet AK. I've been playing poker for a little over a year, and I'm a seasoned veteran compared to him. I'm not saying he's bad, cuz he's not. If everybody had his patience and levelheadedness, they'd all be winners, and the games would be unbeatable.


But he's not tricky. Is AJ a 3-betting hand? Well, obviously the answer is 'it depends'. But if you had to answer yes or no, you'd say no, so Sooga would never 3-bet it. I would have folded the river if I didn't improve (not because my kicker was so anemic...if I had AJs with a flush draw on the turn and I missed, I'd dump it on the river, as well...).


Obviously this example is a little contrived, because most (i.e. every single time in the history of the world), AK would bet, and AJ would call. But I still think that in this particular example, there was little or no value in Sooga's river bet.


As for giving him chips back....I hate it when I see people push chips after every hand. But I do it, so I never complain when others do. As for giving back a whole bet...I tried to make it unnoticeable (in fact Sooga didn't notice the 6 chips waiting for him until after he mucked the next hand). But I agree with you whole heartedly.


Lastly, as Sooga cleared up, we are friends (buddies, whatever). In fact, I'm THIS CLOSE to dating his sister....(kidding, kidding).


Josh

Duke -


Can I borrow $81? Just kidding. I'm guessing that your post is mostly in jest, and that you don't blame me for his life-long losing streak...we all know its because he routinely mucks KK UTG because of the thorough lack of position.


THe ironic part to this hand is I told Sooga all day that I was just waiting to checkraise him.


And I agree with you...the guy's gotta be more aggressive on the flop....but he's just, in general, always gotta be more aggressive.


What I don't understand is why you say in your last sentence to him NOT to play in a game with me...if I'm in the game, there's at least one live one, and at least one guy who ain't gonna win a single damn pot!!


Josh

Mike -


If I was just an innocent bystander reading these posts, I would assume that JV is also a friend of mine just trying to joke around also (see, Slider below).


However, that's not the case. I thought it was obvious we were joking around. You think so too. I think Andy saw that down below. But JV can't. Beats me how.


JV -


As for me thinking Sooga idolizes me...well, you're keeping your record intact...I never said such a thing...I did say that I am somewhat a mentor, and that is the truth...Sooga has been known to email me, saying he posted a hand and wants my opinion...no, he doesn't idolize me...he knows enough to idolize a guy who can win, and that ain't me.


Josh

Gummy,


First off, you are probably right. I don't think I've ever 3-bet AK in my life. But that's in live games. I go a little crazy when I play online tho. Stick a button in front of me, and hell, I'm invincible. I'll 3-bet AQo, AJs, 27o, whatever. I do have to admit though, that I play a lot more aggressively and trickier online. Really. Seriously. I should carry that over live, but I dunno, when I actually have actual chips in my hand, it makes a bit more tentative about pulling the trigger. /images/frown.gif


As for mucking KK UTG, c'mon now. That's just ridiculous. KK is like at least worth a limp. But, if there's a late-position raise, I'll probably have to dump it.


And you are NEVER meeting my sister.

But you laughed when you read the sister comment, right?


jigga


p.s. you are filling out a bracket with us, right?

Eh I don't know... given my current status of 'unemployed bum that does nothing but sleep all day' (otherwise known as 'Phil'), I have neither the interest, nor the funds, needed to fill out a bracket. Like I said, I don't follow college ball at ALL. But I'll think about it yo.

Dude, Dave filled out a bracket. You best do it, or you'll be swimming with the fishies, eh?


j

A lot of it was in jest. The first line was serious. That IS cold.


I just got in after a 30 minute nap in my car. I guess I'm really back in it. I figured I fuck around with 4-8 some more, and got a few hands cracked. Quite a few. By midnight I was in for 4 racks. I wanted to beat that goddamn game though, and wouldn't give up. I proudly left at 8:15 or so this morning up $38.


Being in for 4 racks in a California game was embarassing, as was the fact that the remaining benjamin's were almost falling out of my clip... it was getting pretty thin. Tight play was fine, as was getting a bit lucky at one point. I'll tell that story now.


I don't even look at my cards, and I watch the other people look at their cards. I'm UTG and open with a raise. Everybody looked weak, and I wanted to see how they'd react to a raise. Nobody knew I didn't peek yet. I got a fold, a fold, a call, and then a re-raise out of a young guy whose play I actually respected - must have misread him. There's a call, and I re-raise it again. 4 bets is the cap - 4 to the flop.


Flop - A45 with 2 diamonds. I check into the field. There's a bet. The young guy raises it up (ok he's on a pocket pair - He's trying to scare the aces away). There is a call, and I call.


Turn is a Js - No spades on the flop. I check into the field again. original better checks, young kid raises, and the last guy to act calls. I raise it up. First position guy calls meekly - he'll lay it down if I bet the river - I just KNOW it. Young kid mucks. Last guy calls.


River 9c. I bet out. first guy RAISES!!! Boy did I misread him. Wait - maybe he caught the 9 for 2 pair. Damnit. He had me on AK and he's not going to lay down for a re-raise. Last guy folds.


And now I better look at my cards. It's heads up, and I know he's going to call me if I kick him back - call at LEAST. I can't win without cards this time. Better peek - 23s. I flopped the nut straight. I didn't even fucking know it, but I had this baby since the flop.


Re-raise. He re-raises me once again. I kick it back... too confidently. He considers the set. He calls.


Yeah - he had A9 - and I had to look eventually to see if I fucked myself up big time - but I almost got a bunch of calling stations to muck their hands in a 4-8 game, and only misread whether or not I could get the one guy to muck that I was sure would off the bat.


This basically proves that I can't read people for shit.


That's what happens when you're grinding out a comeback since you don't want to walk out of the "easiest poker room in the world to beat" a loser.


I attribute any typos to lack of sleep.


~D