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View Full Version : Frustrating Recurring Low Limit Situation.


parappa
07-17-2004, 05:58 PM
Party $5+1. This situation has come up several times for me, and I don't know how to handle it.

1st hand, I'm UTG. Blinds 15-30.
I get AKo.
I Raise to 90.
Button Calls, everyone else folds.
Flop comes 5dKh8d. I bet 190. Button calls.
Turn 9d.
I bet 190, am raised to 380. I call.
River doesn't change anything and I pay off another 200 or something to get shown the flush, effectively knocking me out.

I'm just not sure how to handle this situation. If I check and call, I end up in roughly the same spot. If I push on the flop, I end up in roughly the same spot at this level, b/c my opponent is going to go all-in with the flush draw no matter what his odds. The only way I can change things seems to be to check and fold if the button bets, but it seems horribly weak. Help!

Cosimo
07-17-2004, 08:03 PM
Interesting. Let me try some math.

90 + 90 + 30 + 15 = 225 pot on the flop. He's got a 1-in-3 *(34.9676%) chance of making it by the river, or 1-in-5.222 (I'll call this fraction F) to hit his flush on the next card. He has to call your bet (x) to get 225 + x. Hence, he has odds to call your bet if it is less than 70. Implied odds are higher, especially since he could bluff at you without the flush, and because it's no limit.

Assume that he will get all your money if he makes the flush by the river. If your stack is S, and the pot P, then he stands to win S+P. Hence, a bet greater than F*(S+P) will deny him odds to draw. With a 1000-chip stack and a 225 pot, then a 234.5 bet is the cut-off point.

As for how one applies this, I'll leave that to the more experienced posters here.

-Cosimo

Rekwob
07-18-2004, 06:49 AM
how about not paying him off, folding once you're raised unless you have the A high flush draw

parappa
07-18-2004, 11:54 AM
Yes, after thinking about this for a couple of days now, I've come down to two choices:

1. Don't pay him off, check and fold the turn. The problem here is that on party I've committed 90 pre-flop + 180 on the flop = 270, giving me a stack of 510, which is still better than paying the rest of my stack to get shown the flush.

I was somewhat concerned with table image after such a fold, but I'm starting to think that anyone weak enough to call the raise and pot-sized bet with just the draw (i've seen kxs and jxs here) might not be aggressive enough to represent the flush if he doesn't have it.

2. The other choice is simply to fold AK in early position on round 1, and only play AA/KK. This avoids the even more frustrating problem at this level of someone who has made the flush (even the nuts) and simply checks and calls to the showdown. I kind of like this option b/c I seem to have many fewer problems with getting into the money in Sng's where I don't get any cards over the first few rounds, and by folding it I don't give weaker players a chance to bust me early. I know that if I were against someone whom I knew was a much better player, I'd go all-in with the flush draw heads up and take the 65/35 chance that I'd win, because it's higher than the chance that I'd beat them over an extended match. It might be fatalism/weakness, but I'm starting to see AK and AQ as trap hands early in these low-limit sngs.

woodguy
07-18-2004, 12:08 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I was somewhat concerned with table image after such a fold, but I'm starting to think that anyone weak enough to call the raise and pot-sized bet with just the draw (i've seen kxs and jxs here) might not be aggressive enough to represent the flush if he doesn't have it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. In an SnG I worry about my stack, not table image. 510 isn't great, but you are by no means out of it. The Party structure demands that if you miss early and lose some chips, you have to increase your starting requirements, as you become alot more pot commited with any hand you play.

Laying down a good hand which is probably second best is key to winning long term.
In a $5 SnG, I wouldn't worry about anyone "representing" a flush, I would worry about them having it.
At this level play straight forward poker, respect the raises, and wait for the good hands and you will win.
Also, move up to the $10's, rake is 5%, not 10% and the play is the same.

IMO, NLHE is not about how many chips you win, its about how many you don't lose.
You will get good hands in good spots. This is a good hand in a not so good spot.

regards,
woodguy

Big O
07-18-2004, 12:56 PM
Dont pay the guy off on the turn. Why would he be calling your bet on the flop. Flush draw, KQ maybe. But when the Diam comes on the turn. Dont give him another 190 then give him 200 on the river. You still would have had ~500 left. You could have waited and tried to double back up from a better hand, or start to steal the blinds with some all-ins hoping no one will call.

Big O

Desdia72
07-18-2004, 01:13 PM
A K suited could be a likely hand that the guy is holding, at which point, he has a better chance at winning from the flop on. not only does he have TP/TK along with you but he's one suited card away from nut flush. paying off on the turn and river are not good in this spot. even if the guy called with K Q suited, the reraise on the turn would let me know....FLUSH, FLUSH!

parappa
07-18-2004, 01:14 PM
Yeah, this is absolutely right and I didn't see it. The flush came on the turn and I was in aggressive mode--I bet out because I thought that I'd have to fold to any bet and it didn't much matter if the guy had the flush or not, if you see what I mean. I just had my foot blindly on the gas pedal and couldn't see that I needed to check and fold. I paid off the top hand to avoid being bluffed out, which I see now was a bad mistake.

Thanks for the advice to all of you /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Desdia72
07-18-2004, 01:51 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, this is absolutely right and I didn't see it. The flush came on the turn and I was in aggressive mode--I bet out because I thought that I'd have to fold to any bet and it didn't much matter if the guy had the flush or not, if you see what I mean. I just had my foot blindly on the gas pedal and couldn't see that I needed to check and fold. I paid off the top hand to avoid being bluffed out, which I see now was a bad mistake.

Thanks for the advice to all of you /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

it's a learning process. i'm a veteran $5 SNG player on Stars and i've seen it all. let me show you some key laydowns that i made and see what you can gather from them.

1. holding Q Q, i reraise over the top of another player already all-in with a shortstack and the chipleader at the table calls. i bet strong on the flop which has a Jack and two low connecting cards. he calls. i'm now putting this guy on a straight draw. the turn is an x card that does'nt benefit either of us so i check to see what he will do. he bets on the turn and i reraise him still feeling that i have the best hand. he calls my reraise. the river hits another low connector card and somehow, I KNOW the guy has a straight. i check again and he bets even stronger. i fold knowing i will get to see his hole cards because of the shortstack already all-in. the guy shows 6 5o for the straight and wins the hand.

2. with about 5 players left in one SNG, i raise preflop with A J and get one caller (the chipleader who had flopped around into the lead playing all kinds of hands). the flop comes with a Jack and x card and like an 8 for straight possibilities. i bet strong on the flop with TP/TK and he calls. i now put him on a draw or a Jack hand with a weaker kicker. i then decide to check the turn to see what he does (the turn is an x card that does'nt help either of us). he bets the turn and i reraise him, which he calls. the river hits a 10 and now i'm thinking, STRAIGHT, STRAIGHT! so i check again and he bets strong. i fold figuring whatever he's got, i'm now beat. luckly, he decides to show his hand which ended up being J 10 for two pair. even though it was'nt the straight, it ended up being the Jack with weaker kicker holding that i thought on the flop.

3. in another SNG holding J J, i raise preflop and get about 3 or 4 callers. the flop hits with another Jack giving me trips with two diamonds on the flop to represent a flush draw for anybody with two diamonds. i bet strong on the flop to drive out any flush draw players and only one guy calls. the turn is another diamond but something tells me the guy does'nt have a flush- even after i bet, he reraised, and i called. the river hit another diamond and i know this guy has a flush now because even the 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif at this point would beat trip Jacks. i decide to check and he bets strong. i folded. luckly this player also decides to show his hand. he has an A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and some x card in his hand for the Ace-high flush.

my point is, in all three scenarios i KNEW i had the best hand up until the river. in all three, i checkraised on the turn with the best hand twice and called a reraise on the turn with the best hand only to have the players hit on the river. in all three, i knew the river had blessed the player whose initial marginal holding was now the NUTS. it hurt to lay these hands down, but when something smells FISHY, it usually is. you gotta know when to get away from a hand in order to be successful, even when it's hard to.