Set With Monotone Flop. Checkraise or Bet Out?

This hand came from an evening Los Angeles 20/40 holdem game that was relatively loose and passive (as opposed to loose and aggressive).


Before the flop Hero is in big blind with black 55s. Four players limp to the cutoff (a normally passive player) and he raises. A typical player on the button makes it three bets. The SB folds and Hero calls two more bets. All remaining players call. There are 21+ small bets in the pot. Does anybody fold here in the BB?


The flop comes Qh 5h 3h. Should Hero bet or go for the checkraise?


Results and my thoughts below.

IMO the pre flop call was fine with this large a field.


Hero checked and the cutoff bet, button called and now Hero checkraises. One limper cold calls, along with cutoff and button.


The turn is a Kd. Hero bets and all three call. The river is a 2c. Hero bets and cutoff and button call. Hero’s hand is good.


I thought that betting the flop was much better than going for the checkraise. You bet hoping to trap others in the pot between you and the pre flop raisers. On the flop put in all the raises you can while you are a money favorite against a draw (and have drawing odds to fill up against a field if the flush is out).


Anyway, after thinking about it more I’m not so sure.


~ Rick

"There are 21+ small bets in the pot. Does anybody fold here in the BB?"


7-way action with presto? And a discount? Nope.


"The flop comes Qh 5h 3h."


Hero should bet. For sure you are against someone holding a big flush draw or a made flush -- either way, you are silent partners with this person (either you are a 2:1 favourite or he is) and you want to build a big multi-way pot where either you or him will win it.


Betting traps the field for at least one bet, all those guys drawing monsterously thin but calling because the pot is big. Check-raising a late position raiser may flush out everyone in between you and get heads-up with your "partner", which you don't want.

Checkraise. Then bet the turn no matter what comes. Your on your own after that.

Bet


Vince

Why?


Rick

Why?


Well if you check there is a good chance that someone with one high heart will bet and you can get your check raise. Of course if they have the flush already then you may not like the check raise. Of course if you bet that one high heart is likely to raise and then you get three bets in on the flop or maybe even more.


But that's not the primary reason to bet here. Quite frankly a set of 5's is not that strong of a hand with the board that you described. I don't believe taking a chance of giving a free card with this board is a good idea.


Vince

Does anybody fold here in the BB?


While I have never played in LA, the sense I get is that none of the limpers will likely fold, so that you’ll probably get either 9.75:1 (if no one caps) or 8.5:1 (if it gets capped). Even if one limper folds, you’re still getting 8.75:1 (no cap) or 7.5:1 (capped). These odds dictate a call in my opinion.


Should Hero bet or go for the checkraise?


I prefer check-raising. With a passive player raising and a normal player 3 betting, you are up against big hands. If either of those hands are top pair or better or have the Ah, then you are basically guaranteed to get a bet from your right. With a pot this large, I think that you should be happy to get the chance to narrow the field, since it’s possible that the better to your right has only an overpair with no heart and that your check-raise will get middle sized hearts to fold for two cold. Also, if you lead, you are unlikely to get raised, since your opponents will fear a made flush. You’ll probably get raised if one of the limpers has a queen, but if none of them have a queen, the preflop raisers may well not raise you with an overpair and no flush card. Without quantifying anything, my gut says that he most of the time if you lead that a bunch of players will call but no one will raise, and that if you check there will usually be a bet and give you the chance to check-raise.


-Dan

Hey Rick,


I owe you an e-mail. Been trying to work in an LA trip before going back EAST. Don't think it will happen. My loss.


Vince

I would bet given that the preflop strength is to my left. But if I trap a few guys for calls and then one of the late position dudes raises, I will at that point just call. i.e., I disagree with the advice that you should put in as many raises as possible on the flop. The reason for this is that if I am raised by one of the guys who showed preflop strength, they probably have a high Heart in their hand. So, if a heart comes and the board does not pair, I am going to lose to him so I don't necessarily care if I also lose to any of the guys who called my flop bet initially. So, I don't want to 3 bet and chase away all those guys who pose no *additional* danger to my hand. I want them all in the pot in case my hand is good and remains good.


So, let's say I bet, 2 guys call and the button raises. I would now just call and let the others behind me also call. If the turn is an offsuit card, I would bet again as I don't want the button to take a free card. I would also bet if I fill or make quads. In other words, the only time I may not bet on the turn is where the Fourth Heart comes down. Even then, I might bet out depending on my feel for the situation. If I am raised, it ain't the end of the world as I do have outs.


Bottom Line: Bet out and pull the stop 'n go if raised.

I got a pair of 5s and there are 6 players behind me. I need to cold call 2 bets and I don't know if there's gonna be yet another raise behind me. When I play small pairs up front for multiple bets I get killed. Hell, sometimes the flop comes monotone and I won't know whether to bet or try for a check-raise. I would have folded.


I would also have folded Mason's pocket 5s for two more bets in his hand to talk about below. Sure, every once in a while the board on the river will be 5 small cards, but hold 'em is a game of position and good situations. A small pair up front in a reraised pot fights this on both counts.

Terrence,


Your thinking mirrored mine. Hero should want to trap the weak flush draws and pairs for bets on the installment plan. Someone could be leading with the flush but the whole table isn’t and Hero and the flush or best flush draw gain at the expense of all others (unless a QQ is out). With a checkraise you tend to drive out the hands you kill (unless one early limper is the only one holding a heart and it is small).


Regards,


Rick

Zeno,


If you checkraise and get two callers or more and a heart comes how can you lead on the turn? The flop checkraise screams "I want to thin the field because I have a made hand without big hearts".


Regards,


Rick

Dan


If weak players between you and the pre flop aggressors in back have a medium heart you love it if the players in back have (overcards OR an overpair) AND a big heart. You are vulnerable but this combo will maximize pot size and the trapped players are hurt the most. Both you and the best draw benefit.


Of course when no big heart is out and a checkraise drives out a medium or small heart then that has to be the best play. But as Vince mentioned, this type of flop could get checked through, which is another factor in favor of betting unless it induces “heartless” action later.


What was interesting (to me) was my gut initially told me betting was much better when I was told about the hand. Then I had doubts and after reading all posts I guess it is probably close.


Regards,


Rick

...might be to checkraise on the flop, but if reraised then just call. If no heart comes on the turn then bet and just call a raise. If a heart comes then check and call on the turn.


OTOH, your way sounds real good the more I think about it. It shows the importance of thinking a few moves ahead.


Regards,


Rick

Vince,


If you don't make it out it will be OUR loss. Good luck no matter what.


Regards,


Rick

Andy,


The pre flop question was sort of a throw in so I’m surprised anyone would question it. With six opponents and one bet already in I think the call is almost automatic, even if you are sure it will be capped. The thing about the small pair is that it should be easy to play post flop and it would tear most of us up if we folded and saw the five come on the flop. Besides, 99% of Hero’s sets hold up and flopping a set seems to be about even money if you go by experience of the last two years /images/smile.gif.


Regards,


Rick

The difference between skp's approach and Rick's and mine (and anyone else who said "lead bet with the intention of 3-betting") is 1) the propensity of the players trapped in the middle to call 2 more bets with drawing-thin hands, and 2) the propensity of the raiser to raise with hands other than a flush. The bigger 1) and 2) are, the more likely 3-betting is correct, and the smaller they are, the more likely bet-call is correct.


On balance, I think 3-betting is still correct, because it's rather unlikely you're up against a made flush from one of the late raisers, and getting heads-up against the big heart is no disaster. Just calling may cause you to lose to 64 or somesuch, and while it's a longshot, I don't want to fuck around in such a big pot and give these middle guys something like 28:1 pot odds.

These are good points. Note that by just calling instead of 3 betting, you could also lose to something like 7h7s should a 7 come off on the turn.

Someone may have a made hand with small to medium hearts. Showing constant strengh throughtout may get them to fold even if you don't fill up. This depends on table image and type of opponents of course and this hand is close on how it can be played out. I opt for the "aggressive approach" - IT May throw your opponents off a bit and you have outs to beat a nut flush (The ACE may NOT be out there) and you will probably get paid off because of the large pot if the board pairs.


IT "depends" as usual.


Good discussion. Thanks for posting the hand.


ZENO

Hero should bet and here is why. The action came from the late positions and a checkraise would make it two bet to the limpers. By betting the hero makes the limpers call one bet and if the late position players raise hero can call and get the limpers for one more bet. I would do the same thing on the turn (bet out).