"Small stuff" hand for Arkady: Overpair gets raised on the turn

[bdk3clash]

Arkady made a great point recently about what hands we choose to post. I think we (or at least, I) have a tendency to post about fluky/sexy/interesting hands, while the majority of the hands we play are (by definition) much less interesting but in a lot of ways much more important.

I think that some of the hands and decisions we stress about ("check or bet this river?") end up being fractions of a bet one way or another. These add up, but they can't compare to, say, gaping leaks in our game when our overpairs get raised on the turn...

Here's one. Mult-tabling, villain is moderately shortstacked (about 10 BBs at the start of the hand), loose and passive before the flop but hasn't gotten particularly out of line.

Comments on each street appreciated, my thoughts and results later.

Party Poker 1/2 (10 handed)
bdk3clash has K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif and is EP1

bdk3clash raises, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, BB folds, UTG folds

Flop(10 SB): T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

bdk3clash bets, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button calls

Turn(6 BB): T/images/graemlins/spade.gif

bdk3clash bets, CO raises, Button folds, bdk3clash calls

River(10 BB): 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif

bdk3clash checks, CO bets, bdk3clash calls

[BottlesOf]

I play it the same. If he has a T, oh well. If not, you got him to throw you some extra bets.

[balkii]

Calling down in this spot is far from a "gaping leak." I'd call and expect to win a good amount in this spot.

[bdk3clash]

Opponent had A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, and MHIG. Why do they follow through with the bluff when I'm clearly calling?

The simple shepherd from Mepos was right.

[MRBAA]

Well, that's potentially a very scary turn card and he had lots of outs, so the turn raise is not awful if he thinks there's a significant chance you'll fold. I'd like it better if he had been first to act and c/r d here though. If he hits the nut flush, he wants the third guy in, for one thing.

On the river, it's just a judgement call as to how often you may fold as to whether or not he bets.

[balkii]

The simple shepherd from Mepos was right

Well paint me green and call me Gumby!

[J.R.]

I'd like it better if he had been first to act and c/r d here though. If he hits the nut flush, he wants the third guy in, for one thing.

He (the guy with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif) doesn't want to call to let the other person in becuase:

1)having the other guy in only nets him one extra bet when he hits and wins (assuming bdk3clash calls the turn and river when there is a turn raise and both bdk3clash and the 3rd player call the turn and river bets- the second set fo assumptions are a little iffy IMO) than had he called,

2)if the 3rd player has a hand he is going to call the turn raise, so the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ :diamond gains one or two extra bets (if the 3rd player also calls the river) more than just calling when he hits,

3) most importantly, he can risk one extra bet to credibly represent trips and get hero to fold he wins 7 bets. That is a huge coup. I think this bluff works more than one in eight times.

4) He only hits the flush 25% of the time, so 1 and 2 are dimished concerns (although the A is likely an out, so he may win closer to 30% of the time)

So he may make more when he raises and makes the best hand than had he just called on the turn with the nut flush draw, and we will win this pot with a bluff more than 1 in 8 yimes. I think raising is an excellent play here. Think about the time bdk3clash has AK, JJ, the other AJ.


I addition, a check-raise after a bet and a call is a less effective bluff than raising bdk3clash's turn bet with the other player still to act, and the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif doesn't have enough equity to check-raise the turn for value.

[Bob T.]

I play it the same. If he has a T, oh well. If not, you got him to throw you some extra bets.

[BottlesOf]

Does this mean you agree with me?

[Bob T.]

pretty much, lol.

[joker122]

Bob, I'm glad that you post here.

[JTG51]

Why do they follow through with the bluff when I'm clearly calling?

Why should it be so clear to him that your calling? What if he put you on AK, which certainly isn't unreasonable. Should he still give up on his bluff and check behind on the river?

[brassnuts]

OK, everyone uses this term and I'm pretty sure I've figured out the definition, but I'm not sure. MHIG = my hand is good?

[turnipmonster]

what do you think about a stop and go on the river?

--turnipmonster

[Monty Cantsin]

The T pairing, combined with the very drawy board, and the fact that, as pre-flop raiser I assume everyone puts me on AK, makes me highly suspect of this raise. I think plenty of people with a Q or even a pocket pair would see this as a perfect opportunity to push you off AK. I would call this down enthusiastically. If the board were less drawy and "scary" I would call it down reluctantly.

If I was enthusiastic enough (for example too enthusiastic to legally drive) I might even re-raise the little bastard.

/mc

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
Arkady made a great point recently about what hands we choose to post. I think we (or at least, I) have a tendency to post about fluky/sexy/interesting hands, while the majority of the hands we play are (by definition) much less interesting but in a lot of ways much more important.

I think that some of the hands and decisions we stress about ("check or bet this river?") end up being fractions of a bet one way or another. These add up, but they can't compare to, say, gaping leaks in our game

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been saying this a for a while. These are the type of hands I try to post and the type of hands that get me the most interested. The hands that almost appear standard.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
what do you think about a stop and go on the river?

--turnipmonster

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I tend to get more value from check-calling here , because:

-it encourages another bluff attempt if my opponent was bluffing/semi-bluffing the turn (though he might have been semi-bluffing the turn when he picked up a /images/graemlins/spade.gif draw).

-There's a decent chance my opponent will continue to bluff with a hand that he isn't even going to call a bet with, so I gain a bet there. (Note that there's a big difference between this and those hands where you bet, bet, and then "check the river to induce a bluff," which is often used as an excuse to play weakly on the river.)

-check-calling gives me a 1 bet showdown when my opponent does have trip 10s. He'll probably raise the river again (the 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif is unlikely to have helped me) and I'd be forced to call.

I guess betting out does get a call from hands that would check behind, but I think the above reasons outweight the value gained there. This is one instance where check-calling the river seems to be right for the range of hands my opponent could have.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Arkady made a great point recently about what hands we choose to post. I think we (or at least, I) have a tendency to post about fluky/sexy/interesting hands, while the majority of the hands we play are (by definition) much less interesting but in a lot of ways much more important.

I think that some of the hands and decisions we stress about ("check or bet this river?") end up being fractions of a bet one way or another. These add up, but they can't compare to, say, gaping leaks in our game

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been saying this a for a while. These are the type of hands I try to post and the type of hands that get me the most interested. The hands that almost appear standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell me about it. I'm blown at the responses and thoughtfulness in this thread about such a "simple" hand.

[arkady]

I log in here every morning checking out the new threads and I must say this morning was exceptionally interesting. Nothing like having your name mentioned in a topic, ooh wee...

The only problem, I don't see any mistakes on your part as I dont think anyone on this forum would ever fold with KK to a turn raise. I am thinking villain would have raised any turn for his FD/GUT draw and didnt think the T was a scare card for you - just sort of turned out that way.

I don't know who suggested a stop and go, but I am guessing that it was a result oriented response - because that is a very tough bet to make and is something entirely player specific. Other than a Q or 99, not much left on this board - its either a made hand or a busted draw.

[bdk3clash]

I guess the actual play is less interesting than the reasoning behind why we tend to do what we do.

[arkady]

amen to that, if for every "sexy" post - people just posted some small hand where they were seriously and truly conflicted where the pot was no more than 5 BBs, I would think people might expose and plug many leaks. We are just striving for that 1 extra bb / 100 and after a month that is a very noticeable difference.

[Bob T.]

MHIG = my hand is good? yep.