Q9 - help with odds

[StableHand]

Hi.

I posted this question earlier in a journal, but I'm afraid it's buried, so I'm hoping on better luck to have a reply here.

2/4 Hold'em

I have Q9 UTG. Flop is 568r.
2 opponents, $18 in the pot.
I'm facing a $4-call.

The pot is offering me 4.5 to 1, on a 5.7 to 1 shot (assuming pair of Qs will tolerate a showdown, which I indeed assume).
But here is a spot where implied odds must apply, right?
If the 7 comes on the turn, I count on getting the minimum back, which would mean I'm getting 7.5 to 1 on my call.
If the 7 does not show on the turn, but rather the J; I now have a double gut, giving me 11 outs. And implied odds of ?
In the best scenario the J gives the PF-raiser with AJ TPTK, and it will cost me another $4 to see the river, which brings the T filling my straight. The turn is called by the limper and my checkraise is paid off by the PF-raiser. This sums up to $36 for my $8 call on the flop and turn. 4.5 to 1 in implied odds?? Same as the imidiate pot-odds on the flop?

Am I completely off here?

How do I calculate the odds for calling the flop, while thinking ahead of possible scenarios, including an A or K on the turn which would take away my Q - outs?

And most importantly how do I apply my calculations to the game?

Thank you for reading my post today.

[mikewvp]

Don't ever call Q9 under the gun, thats my philosophy.

[StableHand]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't ever call Q9 under the gun, thats my philosophy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good philosophy, I suppose. I read a book where Q9o was rated as a Group 8 hand, and hence shouldn't be played UTG.

However, I was primarily requesting help with how to go about with the math of calculating odds.

Thanks all the same.

[balkii]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't ever call Q9 under the gun, thats my philosophy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good philosophy, I suppose. I read a book where Q9o was rated as a Group 8 hand, and hence shouldn't be played UTG.


[/ QUOTE ]

The reason why you dont play Q9o UTG is not because some book rated it as a group 8 hand, and then says not to play group 8 hands UTG. The reason why you dont play Q9o UTG is because its a piece of trash, and winning players dont play trash UTG.

As far as your math goes - if you have a straight draw and an overcard, it doesnt really matter how much is in the pot, the very few times there isnt enough in there will be made up in implied odds.

[StableHand]

[ QUOTE ]

The reason why <snip>

[/ QUOTE ]

Gotcha! I just din't see a reason to get all patronizing on me with a textbook answer. And, my bad: UTG was supposed to mean "first to speak after the flop"; in the actual hand it was in the big blind. Just for the record, under the right circumstances , I find Q9 to be playable to a raise in the big blind. But that is beside the point. I was just hoping that someone would see beyond the surface on this one.

Thanks.

[Cosimo]

UTG means the guy to the left of the BB. It might more generally mean the first to speak, but position is so important and so common a point of discussion that its specific meaning is the only one recognized on these forums. "I have Q9 UTG" means "I am sitting to the left of the BB" and nothing else.

Also, don't worry if someone with <50 posts is a bit rude. Most of the good, regular posters here have 500+. Some have over 7000.

Finally, be careful about being too defensive. This guy (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=830802&page=1&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1#830802) got a bad reception for showing up and insulting (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=835857) everyone.