Help settle this debate.

So, Thursday night, I'm playing 9-18 at commerce.


The game is fairly loose, much like 4 is a fairly even number, or ice is fairly cold. There are two players at the table who will think about folding before the flop..myself and Brian...I've written about Brian before...he's decent. mediocre, maybe /images/smile.gif He's to my immediate left, and we discuss poker a fair amount.


On this hand, Brian has the button. The Small blind thinks that folding just shows weekness. Seriously...he's limped with K2o, cold called raises of mine with T5s, 3bets with 78o, you know the kind. And he has like 4 racks in front of him. He's in the small blind. The big blind is currently in a "lets see who can see the most flops in the next hour" contest.


So, when UTG raises, I know that both blinds will be calling. After the raise, there are 3 cold callers.


I'm in the cutoff with 66. What do I do? Brian says I should fold. I say I should raise, and that I'll post it to see what you guys say.


But one caveat. Brian said that I can't follow Tommy Angelo's advice. The reasoning is that Tommy is a better player than I, so if it's right for Tommy, it doesn't mean that it's right for me. So, Tommy, feel free to comment, but I'm afraid I can't read it /images/frown.gif.


I feel that a call is a no-brainer. I even consider 3-betting, just because.


(just for the record, I called, as did Brian with ATs...flop came Tc 8c 6d...I bet, Brian raised, three called two bets cold, I 3-bet, brian called...turn was Th...I bet, Brian called, two more called....I was hoping for a club, 7, or 9 on the river, but alas, it was the 2s...I bet, Brian called, although he was fairly confident he was beat....as another aside, it was cool, cuz I actually flopped a set. I'm gonna try to do that more often...Monday, I flopped one set in 28 pocket pairs. ouch. )


So, what do you do here with the sixes? You call, right? RIGHT????


Thought so.


Josh

With the action you are getting(UTG+3+2blinds), it's an easy call. Raising isn't horrible, but doesn't seem great to me, either. Call, see the flop, get away cheap or stack a monster. Nice hand.


BQ

You've got plenty of multiway action to justify a call. You don't need a raise to tie players to the pot in the event you flop a set -- bad players don't need a big pot to be tied to a hand. The only benefit of raising is if you can get the button to fold and have everyone check to you on the flop. Then you can get a free card to spike a set (if there isn't a six on the flop). Since the game sounds agressive, I'd fear a reraise preflop and would probably call.

I think Tommy would call, but since I don't play as good as he does, I would fold. You have to consider that one of the blinds might reraise, given the way the game has been going. That means your odds will go way down.


But in the long run I think calling is close to a break even play, just because of the large pot you win when you flop a set (and it holds up).

Gummy,


Calling is easily my play here because you have four opponents already committed and know you will get the blinds and perhaps your friend. I'd even call an UTG raise and two cold callers if I thought I was that sure to get the blinds. Five opponents or more in a raised pot are about right for a small pair.


Also note that with an UTG raise and cold callers, the action will often lead into you (even though it didn’t this time), further magnifying the value of your sets when you flop one.


Note that at some clubs they use a single blind at 9/18. Here you need a little more to call in this spot and others.


I wouldn't reraise since that usually drives off the button and even these blinds and you may end up seeing the pot capped (getting position on the button isn’t so important when you are looking to flop a set). Now you often end up chasing even when you don't flop a set with well over 20 bets in the pot. So for a debatable increase in expectation or future action, you have added an awful lot to your swings. If you can handle those swings, move up to 15/30 and 20/40.


Regards,


Rick

UTG + 3 cold callers + 2 Blinds = 6 big bets. Do you think you can win 4 more big bets if you hit the set? I do. that gives you easy odds to call. so what if someone re-raises, odds are still fine.

i think it's an easy call of course, but i really like to fold it when im running bad. im not really interested in playing middle pocket pairs much anymore as i tend to misplay them so frequently.


the other day in a loose 15-30 game someone raised in ep (this absolutely didnt mean they necessarily had a group 1-2 hand, they couldve had down to group 4 maybe 5). i had 99 next to go, i mucked. next hand. am i stupid?

I think it depends on the the nature of the game *after the flop*. Often players play loose preflop, but then can let go of a hand. A loose agressive game post flop, which I think it sounds like ... I think I would call since I can probably get excessive action post flop.

with pocket 5's,I don't see any reason Y U can't cold call with pocket 6's!


Sitting Bull

Given preflop 6:1 odds (or even 7:1 if your friend Brian on the button comes in -- as he did), second best position from the cutoff, and a favorable position relative to the preflop raiser in which to squeeze 3 hapless opponents for extra bets on the installment plan after the flop, and I am never ever ever folding any pocket pair unless a preflop cap is nearly certain. If my bankroll was fairly large in relation to the limit, I wouldn't even mind calling a guaranteed preflop cap getting 6:1 or better on my money.


You are getting nearly true odds to flop a set, even ignoring the favorable implied odds for winning many more extra bets those times you flop a set. If you don't flop the set, you can just fold unless there are compelling reasons to believe you can get an odds on draw to your 2 outer or you have other reads/draws to work with. To me, the preflop call seems a no brainer, but maybe I borrowed mike l's crack pipe.


By the same token, I would pretty much never reraise preflop. The pot should already be plenty large enough to earn excessive postflop action for your set, and a reraise hurts you by increasing your cost to see if you can flop a set (perhaps by a great deal if UTG now puts in more raises) and/or by possibly knocking out the button/blinds (decreasing your implied odds). The main benefit you might gain from a preflop reraise is the unlikely parlay of getting a free card on the flop and then spiking a set on the turn, but I can't imagine this outweighs the disadvantages.