Puzzling Indeed

[Jason Strasser]

You are in the BB with the chip lead. A known ass named strassa2 is in the SB. He has T1700, you have T2200, and he has stolen your lass two blinds by moving all-in. Blinds are now at 200/400 after having just moved up.

You are dealt TT. Strassa2 makes it T1000. Your move?

P.S. There is a point.

[durron597]

Against you? Easy reraise allin. Though, I have read hand histories of yours where you would do this with T6o.

Edit: I really should read more carefully. A small raise from you? I probably still reraise allin, because you are fishy enough that you could be trying to make me think you're trapping. However that could be exactly what you want me to think. I probably go round and round on the psychological game in my head for awhile, then decide to bank on the pure math probabilites of you not having the higher PP.

[djcolts]

1. Reraise all-in.
2. Wonder how drunk I must be to be playing in a high-money SNG instead of my usual 10+1.

[Meatmaw]

I'm going to fold, and read you for a higher pair. Typically you tell people to move all in especially in such a short-stacked situation where you have < 5BB. I would figure you wouldn't put yourself in a nasty situation where you have 700 and are deciding to call or not unless you were trying to encourage a call from me. And I'd figure you wouldn't assume that I would think of that.

Now tell me I'm wrong and why???????

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Tosh]

Really this is a situation where its all down to out thinking each other. Your raise is more than a little suspect, it looks like aces/kings, but maybe thats the point. You're going to call an all in anyway, so he can be tricked into thinking you want a call, I for one would be surprised to see you not raise all in.

To have more of an idea what it means I'd need to have played with you more.

[razor]

Fold

By only raising to T1000 Strassa2 doesn't mind a call which means he has AA or KK.

[Jason Strasser]

Really? What do you think I'd do with T6o?

/images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Sam T.]

I undermine his confidence by mocking him mercilessly for not going all-in when he has less than 10xBB. Once I have crushed his spirit, I reraise, and he folds.

But seriously, folks...I take all of my time trying to figure out what he's doing. I know he's not an idiot, so the question is whether this is this an underbet to suck me in? Or to make me fold if I have a hand with which I would normally call? Or did he mis-click "raise"?

ITM I reraise every day and twice if it's a national holiday. On the bubble I fold, and nail his stealing butt to the wall next time he tries it.

[Jason Strasser]

Indeed, this move was very atypical of me. It was sort of a mind game.

A psychological mind fart.

[Benholio]

Fold.
What the hell are you doing raising 1000 instead of pushing, when you only have 1700 and the BB is 400? Either you are a genious and figured I would go through this train of thought, or you are sitting on a monster trying to get me to call or make an ego-raise since you just bought my last two blinds.

Ben

[durron597]

A hand from the final table of the tourney Mr. Strasser recently took second in:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t4000 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG (t118784)
Button (t82314)
strassa2 (known ass) (t113335)
BB (t135567)

Preflop: strassa2 (known ass) is SB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">strassa2 (known ass) raises to t12000</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>,

Final Pot: t16000

Results in white below: <font color="white">
No showdown. strassa2 (known ass) wins t16000. </font>

[Tosh]

I would not be that surprised for you to be holding something like KQ or A8, you're so committed you're calling anyway and you're happy to commit your chips with the hand. Plus if a player can out think himself and fold a hand like this its even better than an all in. It only works against a thinker player of course.

[Jason Strasser]

ROFL,

Nice one. I go sulk in the corner now.

He was too tight!

[Tosh]

Durron that situation i SO different, can you see why?

[durron597]

Oh, I'm not disparaging the play; I could easily see myself doing the same thing. The point is, I'm a big stack who just let you steal my blinds twice. Of course, I also know about the thread with a lot of discussion about you stealing five hands in a row. That's why, at this point, I go with the math instead of the psychological games, because I know I won't be able to figure out whether you mean your raise or not. I think Tosh is probably right when he says you have a hand like KQ or A8 - a hand that doesn't mind playing but isn't an ubermonster.

[durron597]

Yes, the blinds are much smaller in relation to stack size. My point is that he is fishy enough that I don't just immediately put him on a hand that wants a call and fold. I am sure he wouldn't have T7o here, but that raise will not make me immediately give him credit for AA/KK.

[BradleyT]

You know that I know that another all in from you will look like a steal and be an auto-call from me. You think that by not going all in that it will set off a flag and make me think that you have a monster.

In actuallity you have a hand that doesn't want to be called. If you wanted to be called you would have went all in.

[durron597]

The problem is that Jason is smart enough to realize this, and do the play with a hand that DOES want to be called. This is a psychological mind game that can go round and round, but I think that Jason would do this with a lot more than AA-JJ, so I easily reraise allin.

[BradleyT]

Right, but Jason also knows that the average player isn't thinking above level 1 or level 2 so the thought process can't get too extreme.

[Sloats]

[ QUOTE ]
Right, but Jason also knows that the average player isn't thinking above level 1 or level 2 so the thought process can't get too extreme.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does Jason scream out "inconceivable" all the time?

[durron597]

He's playing in a 200+15. Average player? Ok, I don't play in the 200+15s, so I don't know, but I wouldn't count on that if I were Jason.

[Jason Strasser]

Well strassa2 probably has a far worse hand then mine, so I pushed. He showed KK and I was down to less than 500 chips.

*snap back to reality*

I really like the discussion in this thread, and it was really exactly what I was looking for. The player at hand was a good 200+15 player, and a thinking player. I'm not sure if I like my move, because I think that Bradley T is right on the mark. If I wanted to get called, I'd push. My usual play is to push here with any hands worthy of a steal, even the premium hands. This is a very atypical move and it almost goes against everything I work towards. Because I steal so many blinds, I think it is an advantage for me when I get dealt premium hands because I'm able to hide my strength very well.

This post isn't rich with "ooooohs" and "aaaahs" in terms of what you'll get from it. I just wanted to post something where I broke the 10x the BB rule, just for the mere purpose of deception. Judging by the wide range of responses I got here, my newbish play (telegraphing my premium hand) seemed to fool the thinking player.

This is nothing really special, as I think getting KK in the SB against TT in the BB playing the way I do means that I'm going to double up barring a suckout. In the long run, if you are folding TT to my raises in from the SB at any point in a sit and go when blinds are worth stealing, you are making a very -EV move.

Again, I really like what Bradley T said here, he is absolutely right. I just wanted to throw you all a curveball. I also think playing little mind games like this are ok against the right opponents and such. I am getting a lot of repetetive opponenets in my game, and I like occasionally doing moves like this to keep them unsure of themselves.

Thanks for the really good responses, and I'm sorry if I let you down with this very simple and noobish move. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Jason Strasser]

You weren't wrong! I did a noobish play and you were all over it.

[Jason Strasser]

I really also find this post interesting, as many of the lower buy in players were telling me to fold, and some of the more higher buy in players were all over the push option.

[AJo Go All In]

i am coming into this thread a little late, but for what it's worth i am not folding TT in that spot ever against pretty much any opponent.

[stupidsucker]

without reading the other replies....

I push.

I cant just call the 600. I certainly cant fold. I am a little wierded out that you raised like this, but I figure, maybe that is exactly how you want me to feel.

(now to read the other replies)

EDIT: Even after reading it all. I will stick to my answer. I couldnt live with myself laying down TT on the bubble here. Even after the fact of the showdown, I dont feel outplayed here. KK VS TT just happens. If you woulda pushed I call, if you bet 1000k like that I push.

It was a good play, had the BB had something like Ax or K9s then he might have pushed against you, and you would have dominated him, but he might have folded those hands had you pushed. I think with TT most are going to push back at you every time. I guess someone people are too smart for me /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[Cosimo]

If I was a typical SNG fish, I'd "know" that you are bluff-stealing. My TT is a monster, but one should never reraise without AA preflop. I call, then bet all-in on the flop (no matter what comes) as quickly as humanly possible.

Now, if I was me me instead, ... whatever I did it'd be for the wrong reason. /images/graemlins/frown.gif