Going pro...

[THE OUTLAW]

To all that might be thinking about quitting your job and playing poker full time...

I quit my job 3 months ago and moved to Las Vegas with the intention of playing full time. Tonight I realize I have to look for a job in the morning. The bankroll is dangerously low and I realize that I dont have what it takes. Ive worked so hard, playing, reading, studying over the past few years. Its just too tough to make a living doing this. And it is very stressful.

Fortunatly, I had nothing to lose coming out here. I was from a small town, grew up without much money, and didnt have much going for me. Taking a shot was well worth it for me. And I do not regret my move one bit. But, if anyone who has a college degree, a good job, or a family thinks that this is worth a try, they are wrong. Ive seen many posts from people in these situations. It is not worth the risk. I am young had nothing going for me. Figured Id take a shot at the one thing in life I was really passionate about.

Ive become really good friends with a few pros out here. All have college degrees in good fields. I admit they are better players than myself and THEY are struggling. They have come to hate playing and say eventually I will too. I think they are nuts for not pursuing a career in the field they have degrees in.

This post is just a warning to you all. If you have anything holding you back from becoming a pro such as the things Ive mentioned above, let it hold you back. And if you dont have anything holding you back and you think you can make it, good luck. You will need it. There is much more luck to this game than most of us good players would like to think. And if you decide to give it a shot, have a great time. But you have to be prepared for one of the worst nights of your life. The night you realize that you have failed. You are going to have to tell the friends and family back home that you are now dealing poker. Not "playing poker professionally" (which sounds so sweet). And all of them people who dont understand the game will think you were an idiot for trying to be a professional "GAMBLER". The night you feel that you have no idea where your life is headed now that your dream is not possible. Be prepared.

THE OUTLAW

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
But you have to be prepared for one of the worst nights of your life. The night you realize that you have failed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this feeling worse than the feeling you would have some day in the future if you hadn't even tried and looked back wishing you had at least given it a shot?

[Lawrence Ng]

Good post.

[Al Schoonmaker]

Thank you for a courageous post. I hope it convinces others to "keep their day jobs." Poker is a great "second job," but a poor career (for most people, not all).
Regulars here know that I support your position, but I must say a word in support of Dynasty's post in this thread. He and you took a shot when you could afford to fail. You were young, single (I hope), did not have much going for you, and wanted to test your wings. It didn't work, and your failure hurt.
But you had the courage to try, and the courage to accept the unpleasant truth. The really sad cases are the ones who can't accept that truth. Las Vegas and other poker towns are full of them. They hang on indefinitely, living wreteched lives, denying the central reality that they can't make it as pros.
I hope your next endeavor works out better.
Regards,
Al

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Good post

I disagree. Dynasty's reply is better and it isn't even close.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Soory, Al, but I have to jump in here.

The original post is nothing but a whine; a bad-beat story in disguise. Anyone who reads this forum understands the reality of trying to play poker for a living, and would be said to go into the endeavor with eyes wide open.

Being successful at any independent business endeavor is tough and most people that try to start their own business fail.

I don't think the original post added one iota of wisdom to this board.

Just my opinion.

[KenDom]

[ QUOTE ]
"..I am young had nothing going for me. .."

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree completely. You have demonstrated that you have one of the most valuable and rare moral attributes - COURAGE. Pick yourself up and find the means to continue... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[elwoodblues]

And without this post, Dynasty wouldn't have replied.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

But without the post we would not have needed the response.

chicken.egg.chicken.egg......

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Soory, Al, but I have to jump in here.

The original post is nothing but a whine; a bad-beat story in disguise. Anyone who reads this forum understands the reality of trying to play poker for a living, and would be said to go into the endeavor with eyes wide open.

Being successful at any independent business endeavor is tough and most people that try to start their own business fail.

I don't think the original post added one iota of wisdom to this board.

Just my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree with your opinion. I especially love this part:

"I admit they are better players than myself and THEY are struggling......There is much more luck to this game than most of us good players would like to think."

Priceless. One of my favorite things to hear is about the "Vegas pro who is suddenly struggling". All I can say is that for the most part, "Vegas Pro" isn't as good as he thinks he is.

Nothing against the initial poster. Heck, he's probabaly well intentioned. But I agree with Kurn 100% on this one.

[Arnie]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who reads this forum understands the reality of trying to play poker for a living

[/ QUOTE ]

This may not be true, many posters here are inexperienced and just beginning to stretch their "poker wings". Outlaws post was well written, and seemed like its purpose was to help a few of the more inexperienced readers, not a BS attempt for attention and pity.
Excellent post outlaw, and excellent repiles.....

-Chris
Yeah, I fly airplanes...

[playerfl]

Trying to pay regular bills with irregular income is hard enough, but in something like poker or stock trading you also have actual losses. It is not impossible to make it, but it is close enough that a rational person thinking only in financial terms would be looking for supplemental income, perhaps giving lessons, writing books, working as a dealer, etc. An even more rational person would have a decent job and consider poker their supplemental income.

[Sredni Vashtar]

Dear Kurn,

I am reluctant to possibly bring disgrace upon either of the two known sons of Mogh, but, may I ask, do you have some Vulcan blood in you? Honorable and brave as you are, honesty is inevitable, so you may honorably decline to answer. Admittedly I haven't consulted Dr. Crusher, but I am assuming such a union is possible. Sredni Vashtar is one the progeny of Q and also Negelum (sp?). Godhood has its cost. We must overcome. There is no dishonor in Vulcan heritage, IMHO.


As far as Dr. Al, some are born wise, some achieve wisdom, and some have wisdom thrust upon 'em (thanks Shakey), so understand that the Doc has come along way. Evidenced by the inclusion of "(most not all)" [paraphrasing since i dont remember the quote] and the reference to Dynasty. Born not , it has been thrust upon him, via twoplustwo.

As for Clarkmeister, he is clearly part ferret. The more he denies this the more he doth protest too much. (Thanks Shakey).

With regards to the original poster, you have a great deal going for you. The "negative' responses of Kurn et al notwithstanding. Consider it a pain stick ritual and get on with it. Get that job and then take a shot at something else that moves you. Even if you know with certainty that you will perish in human perceived ruin. Ashes to ashes.

This post shouldn't be taken as proof that said author is in the mode of testing some of the beerage in a recent thread.

Sredni Vashtar,

who has had the willpower not to respond to the recent Sklansky threads /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
who has had the willpower not to respond to the recent Sklansky threads

[/ QUOTE ]

We expect no less from a ferret god. Indeed, we would be saddened to see such interaction result in another period of self-exile.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who reads this forum understands the reality of trying to play poker for a living, and would be said to go into the endeavor with eyes wide open.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have to strongly disagree here Kurn. I think there are many well-intentioned and talented players who read these forums. But I also think very, very few of them have ever tried (successfully) to play poker for a living. Since I have, I can vouch for how hard it really is. As a part time job, it's great, but I have a day job (30 hours a week) that pays good and I'm not quitting it, despite the fact I am making enough off poker to have at least a decent living. It's just not the same when ALL you do for money is play poker.

al

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

have to strongly disagree here Kurn. I think there are many well-intentioned and talented players who read these forums. But I also think very, very few of them have ever tried (successfully) to play poker for a living.

I think you missed my point. I meant that if you've been reading this forum, and have been paying attention, you know that going pro is a long uphill battle. But so is starting *any* business where somebody else isn't paying you a salary. In fact, *you* have expressed it much better than this guy did.

[MicroBob]

sorry to hear of your situation....hopefully you will be able to take it in stride.

a few comments though....


[ QUOTE ]
Tonight I realize I have to look for a job

[/ QUOTE ]


i'm glad that you saw this as necessary. but hopefully you saw the possibility coming and didn't have it just occur to you right now. i mean, if you've been watching your bankroll dwindle you should have known at least a couple weeks ago that you were near 'wipe-out' levels. possible you could have stepped down a level to try to survive a bit longer??
if i have a particularly rough week i'm always thinking about whether levels and how many weeks of a similar nature i can 'afford' to have before i need to start hitting the classifieds.


[ QUOTE ]
and didnt have much going for me.

[/ QUOTE ]


this almost makes it sound like you decided to go for it out of desperation. perhaps i am reading more into this statement than is reasonable.


[ QUOTE ]
I am young had nothing going for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

again....it sounds more out of desperation...and perhaps a relative amount of depression was an influence which doesn't seem healthy.
again, i fully acknowledge the possibility that i am reading WAY too much into a single statement like this.
you also addressed that you think it's best if you are single and don't have any terrific well-paying job prospects so perhaps that is all you meant by this.


[ QUOTE ]
they are better players than myself and THEY are struggling.

[/ QUOTE ]

i wonder how much they may or may not be overplaying their bankrolls. i also wonder how strong these players are...particularly with regard to bankroll management.


[ QUOTE ]
Id take a shot at the one thing in life I was really passionate about.


[/ QUOTE ]


this is the part that truly bothers me.
the ONLY thing you are truly passionate about.
i think i could run off a list of about 10 things right now that i am truly passionate about....including women, baseball (watching), sports broadcasting, women, chess, wendy's hamburgers, women, soccer (playing), running (both watching and doing and debating on these forums), music, women, poker (watching on TV...and playing...and studying), cinema, literature, friends, journalism (print and broadcast), and WOMEN etc etc etc.

i'm not trying to be a smart-ass...and i'm not saying you don't have other passions in life...
but you ARE saying that it is your only passion in life...and regardless of whether you are exaggerating or not i think it is a telling statement.


i've been playing online for income for 3 mths and it's going well so far...not sure if it will continue to do so or not.

but it seems to me that many of the individuals who have issues with 'the long grind' that is the life of a poker-pro already have other issues in their lives in need of addressing.

poker will NOT help you create balance in your life. it CAN be a source of income...but the other issues of life are up to the individual to work on.

there are a lot of unhappy people who blame poker for their unhappyness...but i suspect some of them would be miserable regardless. we do tend to create our own misery afterall....that's why i choose not to.

[jerome baker]

1) your probably "underrolled"
2) cant adjust to the players/ have leaks/ not that good of a player
3) moved to the wrong city

[steamboatin]

Remember what Conan the Barbarian always says "Anything that doesn't kill you makes you stronger!" Having the courage to jump out and give it a shot makes you more prepared for the next endeavor. I had a friend, older gentleman, no longer with us that died a multi-millionaire but over the course of his life he had been bankrupt four or five times. Best and most creative real estate mind I ever met. You could learn more from that man in a half hour than most real estate people learn in a lifetime.

He didn't learn all that from trying one thing and it working out, only multiple failures taught him to get very rich.

The Outlawprobably doesn't realize that growth and learning come from failures not successes. Everybody knows Babe Ruth had the record for home runs but how many know he also had the record for strikeouts?

sorry, I am the result of hearing to many motivational speeches.

[MicroBob]

actually....reggie jackson holds the recopd with 2,597 K's.
babe ruth was 70th with 1,330 K's.

the most K's in a season was 189 by Bobby Bonds in 1970.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
older gentleman, no longer with us that died a multi-millionaire but over the course of his life he had been bankrupt four or five times.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's great that he eventually found success...but i hardly think that 'going bankrupt' is a necessary ingredient for finding your way to riches.

it does indicate the possibilities that are out there for those who are willing to try again....but i would suggest that making the attempt in a more responsible fashion is wise.

a lot of people who go bankrupt one time NEVER dig themselves out.
this is why it is so important to be afraid of going broke and do as much as possible to avoid it.


[ QUOTE ]
sorry, I am the result of hearing to many motivational speeches.

[/ QUOTE ]


i despise motivational type speeches and philosophies but that's just me.
i have overheard a few pep-talks and pre-game speeches from coaches/managers in certain sports that i have found to quite impressive though so i guess there's something out there to push someone's buttons.

[MicroBob]

it occured to me that babe ruth PREVIOUSLY hold the record for K's and the emphasis should be on HAD.

looking over the top 70 i see that all the players with more K's then Ruth did it AFTER ruth's playing career.

not sure which one broke Ruth's record but Jimmy Wynn, Harmon Killebrew and Frank Howard seem to be likely candidates just scanning the list.
i think it was Jimmy Wynn but i'm not really sure.

[steamboatin]

cut & paste from my post

Babe Ruth had the record for home runs but how many know he also had the record for strikeouts?

had like not any more.

Only those that are willing to fail have the opportunity to succeed. Often times in business outside forces will cause you to fail. A large and highly successful publicly traded medical company in Louisville, KY (Vencor) went bust when they reformed Medicare, the funds they received for providing nursing home care were cut in half and they bankrupted.

Like in a No Limit tourney, they went from the penthouse to the outhouse, quickly.

[Blarg]

Good luck in your next endeavor, Outlaw. I thought you made a great post and that it was very well-intentioned. The least that could be said is that it's an honest expression of your feelings and experience, and it doesn't make any sense to shoot that kind of thing down. Unfortunately, you got some goofball attacks, but this is the internet, and 2+2 has no shortage of abrasive types, like most net forums.

Anyway, as Steamboatin says, [ QUOTE ]
The Outlawprobably doesn't realize that growth and learning come from failures not successes

[/ QUOTE ]

It's definitely true that success often just means you know what you started with anyway and failure means you've gotten what might be a rare opportunity to really learn. Hopefully you maximize the potential learning that can come out of this experience.

I agree with one of the other posters that one possible problem for plker players -- maybe not you, I don't know -- and even pros, is not being bankrolled big enough. Heck, and having money besides.

As you say, there is an enormous amount of luck in poker; it's only the long run that really makes the definitive statement on whether you are or can be a winner instead of a loser. Most people, I would guess, try to play poker undercapitalized, just like a great percentage of people start businesses undercapitalized. And even if they have the money to play for a living forever, they often race up to higher limits before being properly bankrolled and then get killed because they MUST win, and do it immediately, to play those levels at all.

Common sense not to play that way, but there's a lot of wishful thinking when it comes to crazy dreams.

Personally, I think few people do it the way I would hope that I would try it if I ever did -- going in with enough money to last a LONG time without earning a dime in poker, and enough to replace my entire bankroll if I got wiped out. And never moving up a limit till I could well afford it. That's the kind of thing people recommend when starting a business. You can't depend on immediate profit to get by, and even have to be able to weather substantial immediate losses with aplomb.

Anyway, maybe you will one day come to that place and won't care, or maybe you will care and try again. It doesn't matter, as there is more than one way to get by in life, and if poker isn't for you, then that's fine. But as you say, it is a passion, and I think it is a worthy one. Hopefully you won't abandon it because of your bad experience, but will learn and more over the years until you become the player you had wanted to be and have poker still a worthwhile part of your life, whether you play for a living or not.

[Sully]

[ QUOTE ]
I had a friend, older gentleman, no longer with us that died a multi-millionaire but over the course of his life he had been bankrupt four or five times. Best and most creative real estate mind I ever met. You could learn more from that man in a half hour than most real estate people learn in a lifetime.[ QUOTE ]


I'm sure your friend was a smart guy, but going bankrupt 4 or 5 times doesn't speak much for his character. If he actually declared bankruptcy, that means that he refused to pay back the people that trusted him with their money.

Bankruptcy is a shitty thing, and I hate to see people that use it to take advantage of the system.

WHen he became a multimillionaire, did he go back and repay all of those who he left holding the bag? Sorry if I'm oversensitive, but my Dad ran a bank, and was on the other end of things. Those debts don't just disappear....they come out of somebody's pocket...usually those who trusted you most.

If you meant "broke" instead of bankrupt, then please disregard my little rant.

[digdeep]

It was a courageous attempt to follow a dream that many would never have had the courage to follow. Why can't you continue to play? Take a vacation from poker. You do anything too much and you'll burn out. Get a job, and take a couple months off, save a little money, and then start playing again at lower levels (LOWER LEVELS). Who says you can't be a professional at some point in the future. If that is truly what you want in life, which for some it is, take a break, reflect on your life and your game, and play for supplementary income. A job that provides a steady income will eliminate much of the pressure that most likely contributed to your losing, give you time to improve your game even more. From my understanding, many of the pros went broke several times. If this however is a rude awakening to a life of a professional gambler, something you hate and don't want, then move on, it took alot of courage to do what you did, and least now you know.

[Lawrence Ng]

I disagree,

Yes the post is nothing more than a whine, but it serves its purpose well in proving that trying to get off to a professional start in poker without the right requirements (bankroll, long term game plan, right state of mind) will only leave you in the dust.

[steamboatin]

Broke, busted, etc. He was a man of integrity which probably helped him to rebuild.

[Sully]

[ QUOTE ]
Broke, busted, etc. He was a man of integrity which probably helped him to rebuild.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to split hairs, but bankruptcy = not paying back money you borrowed. Pretty much the exact opposite of "integrity". I know that bad things happen to good people, but bankruptcy is not just some paperwork you fill out to make things disappear. You make others pay the price for YOUR mistakes.

Again, I don't want to pick on your friend, as I never knew him....but the American businessman who hides behind bankruptcy pisses me off.

I promise that this will be my last on this...I'll stop beating a dead horse, and I'm interrupting a good thread.

[Leo Bello]

I agree with you here. Just about any career or business is like that. A long uphill. And as in any business or career, you have to mix the talent, the wisdow and luck. sometimes being in the right place at the right time can help. And always keep working.

On the other side, I have to applause the original poster. I don´t think his intentions were to whine and the post made its purpose. Many of the newcomers only see the glare side of the pros. They don´t have the idea of what it takes. Long time poster from 2+2 and long time Poker players have learned this and have read this countless times. As well as they have read many times: how do you play AQ? Fold AA? Should I raise this or that?
I mean, there is a cycle here. Some new people coming, some old people going out, and the questions and posts renew themselves.
Excelent post. and escelent replies by Kurn, dinasty and others. All of this very worth to the newcomer.

[RydenStoompala]

Hey Outlaw:

The world is shy of people who can make important decisions. This is especially true for people who take responsibility for their own actions. You did a brave thing trying to play pro. But you tried! Feel good about it and move along.

The only part of your post that I found strange was the statement that other pros who you have befriended hate the game. What an obscenely stupid thing to do...to work hard at something you hate. Life's too short. Maybe the best part of the deal (excuse the pun) is that you wont have to hang around with that group of nyhilistic grinders anymore.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

You make others pay the price for YOUR mistakes.

On the other hand (or maybe this is the same point), lenders (particularly credit card banks) factor in bankruptcy losses when determining their rates. In a sense, when we accept 16% rates from major cards (and much higher from retailer cards) we are in all financing the bad debt charges.

Bottom line is, the lenders already have the bad debts paid for, and if you never revolve a balance, you're not paying for it either.

[Dan Mezick]

Anyone good at poker has what it takes to start and run a business. Starting a business is initially risky, with a variance comparable to poker.

Later you figure it out and the variance compresses as you seek to engage in a long string of semi-risk-free opportunities featuring bets that are small relative to your 'bankroll'.

If you play poker well, small business is a very easy game to beat.

NOTE: for those of you without "impressive" college degrees, consider the fact that among the set of all high-earning professionals, "businessman" is one of the few professions that DO NOT require a college degree.

You will need guts ... and the ability to accurately assess risk relative to reward, current blinds, bankroll etc.

Most winning players have all of this going. Such skills can make the transition to business feel completely natural.

Some of the most 'boring' small businesses are immensely profitable and have very low risk. By 'immensely profitable' I mean the potential is there to earn 100, 200, 400K per year. This may seem far-fetched to some readers.

It's not.

Winning players looking to earn a healthy and theoretically unlimited business income by applying poker skills daily will consider a semi-risk-free investment in the following text:

The Origin and Evolution of New Businesses by Amar Bhide (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0195131444/qid%3D1086550409/sr%3D8-1/002-6284322-0580032)


It is my intention that a motivated subset of players reading this post will take action in this business direction, and make the most of those hard-earned poker skills.

Some of you will.

This entire post also relates to recent rants by David Sklansky about the broad applicability of math-logic (read: "poker") skills to many key situations in life.

Leveraging Math-Logic ("Poker") Skills and Thinking ....Broadly. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0195131444/qid%3D1086550409/sr%3D8-1/002-6284322-0580032)

[Timmy Twist]

I don't think that most professional poker players ever really intend to go pro. It's probably something that they became very good at over time. Once they get to a certain point their original job was no longer needed. Thus they turned pro. The smart thing probably would have been to move to Vegas or somewhere near a few casinos and get a job as a dealer. That way while you're not playing poker you're actually studying people's mannerisms at the table. In your spare time play a lot of poker. If that job as a dealer becomes meaningless then you've succeeded. I'm not sure but I think this is how Layne Flack did it.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate to split hairs, but bankruptcy = not paying back money you borrowed. Pretty much the exact opposite of "integrity". I know that bad things happen to good people, but bankruptcy is not just some paperwork you fill out to make things disappear. You make others pay the price for YOUR mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]
Our society decided some time ago that debtors' prisons were not in the social interest. Lender and debtor alike know the rules of bankruptcy before the deal is made. Integrity is playing by the established rules.

America in particular has flourished because businessman are willing to take risks and failed (i.e. experienced) businessman get fresh starts to try again. Bankruptcy makes those things possible.

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
There is much more luck to this game than most of us good players would like to think.

[/ QUOTE ]

This statement says it all to me. First we'd have to define what a good player is. If it's defined as one who is > 0 EV then yeah luck will be a dominant factor for many for a long time.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Ive become really good friends with a few pros out here. All have college degrees in good fields. I admit they are better players than myself and THEY are struggling. They have come to hate playing and say eventually I will too. I think they are nuts for not pursuing a career in the field they have degrees in.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, let me say that I admire your courage for posting.

I've only been playing poker for 13 months, and I've found the Las Vegas mid-limit games to be incredibly easy to beat. I know quite a few professional players here, and none of them are struggling. For the most part, they love the game, and they love the freedom that it affords.

I'm sorry that things didn't work out for you, and I wish you the best in your future endeavours.

[EnderFFX]

Many years down the road you are going to look back on your poker failure and deem it as one of your many accomplishments.

I give you credit for following your dream, and even more credit for realizing when things went bad.

A lot of people in your situation would have travelled down a nasty spiral.... and you didn't.

Good luck in the future. Sounds like you have the guts to make the important decisions in life, and the intelligence to recognize a bad situation before it becomes desparate.

[bball904]

Even as a new poster, I’m inclined to weigh in on this subject because it has been the focal thought in my mind for the last several months.

The character attribute being mentioned in this thread is “courage”. Congratulations on that, you took your shot with nothing to lose! But what does courage have to do with having any significant influence on successful poker? Sure, you can’t play with scared money, but that isn’t courageous, it’s simply not being responsible.

I may be off somewhat on this statement, but I envision that the typically “going pro” decision is made by people in 1 of 2 categories of life.

1. The young enthusiastic poker player, who may be in college, who is full of passion for the game and has enough smarts to read a few books and quickly become an above average player. They have little or no significant responsibilities in life other than themselves. Their short term success leads them into dreaming big and deciding to take a shot at playing for a living.

2. The disgruntled professional who is sick and tired of his life being run by a job that he can’t stand. He has been playing poker in his spare time and has developed the dream of using poker as a means to escape. He typically will have significant other responsibilities such as a family and a mortgage and has great fears in not having a stable income to rely upon. It is a massive life decision to leave his job and take on playing poker exclusively with the thought of playing to earn a living.

So, I ask, which of these players has the better chance at making it? I personally believe the second player, because I believe discipline is the single most important character attribute that is required to successfully play for a living. That does not mean that the young enthusiast can’t succeed, but my guess is that too many of those players lack the proper discipline to withstand the adversities that they will face.

[theBruiser500]

Hm, Outlaw, care to respond to any of these posts?

[The Ocho]

I'm not a professional player and I hate to beat a dead horse here, but simply put the best thing I ever did for my poker game was to get a 9-5 job. Having a steady source of income allowed me to open up my game, enjoy it, and really focus better as a player when I wasn't worried about emptying out my bank account during a bad run. Having a positive cash flow whether I'm currently winning or losing in poker is a great weight off my shoulders.

[Al Schoonmaker]

Having a steady cash flow also allowed you to be much more selective. If you MUST play to pay the rent, you can't be that selective.
The evidence is extremely clear that the most important decision you make is game selection.
Regards,
Al

[StogeyMike]

It absolutely would be.

I'd rather regret something I did than regret not doing something I WISHED I had done, especially in pursuit of a vision or dream.

To OUTLAW:

You sound fairly young, and this may be your first major brush with disappointment (note - I do not use the word failure here). Feel bad for just a little while longer, and then put it behind you and move on. There is nothing saying you can't learn and practice more and one day achieve your goal. I don't want to sound preachy, but disappointment like this happens to everybody - the difference between the winners and losers is that the winners decide to get back up off the mat and keep fighting instead of lying down.

Keep your head and spirits up, don't lose sight of your dream and success will eventually find you.

Good Luck,
Mike

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a professional player and I hate to beat a dead horse here, but simply put the best thing I ever did for my poker game was to get a 9-5 job. Having a steady source of income allowed me to open up my game, enjoy it, and really focus better as a player when I wasn't worried about emptying out my bank account during a bad run. Having a positive cash flow whether I'm currently winning or losing in poker is a great weight off my shoulders.

[/ QUOTE ]

I probably have a lot better situation than most that have decided to do this professionally. Before I quit my "real" job, I saved up a 3000BB bankroll. I also starting drawing my pension early (at a reduced rate), much of which I am reinvesting in a uni-401K plan. I could run bad for two or three years and still not be worried about paying the bills.

I've had two 150BB downswings, neither of which I have lost a night's sleep over. They were both followed by tremendous winning streaks.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
Some of the most 'boring' small businesses are immensely profitable and have very low risk. By 'immensely profitable' I mean the potential is there to earn 100, 200, 400K per year.

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I agree that a lot of people don't realize how much money there is in some very innocuous businesses.

The business with the highest number of millionaires in the United States is not doctor or lawyer by a very long shot, nor bank executive, arbitrage trader, or the usual ideas people generally come up with. It's almost impossibly unglamorous and work-a-day: dry cleaner.

Little no-name hole-in-the-wall pizza delivery shops can also clear an enormous amount of money per year. How much does it really cost to make a pizza? Next to nothing.

I saw a t.v. special a couple of years back on California doughnut shops. Turns out most of the ones in Southern California by now are owned by Cambodians. A Cambodian guy came over and lived in the back of a doughnut shop while he worked there for just a few years, spent virtually nothing and had probably a pretty miserable life, and was able to set up his own doughnut shop not all that long after coming to America completely broke. He quickly made a lot of money in his first shop, and eventually opened up more. He became a kind of folk hero among many Cambodians both here and in his homeland, who followed his example. Doughnuts don't cost a lot to make or to buy, and Americans have a big sweet tooth and are getting fatter by the day.

Little, unassuming businesses can often bring in far, far more money than a lot of people think they can.

[playerfl]

This is very true and has come as quite a wakeup call for me. My problem is I can't do anything that boring. I've had interesting jobs making middle class money, but I would have been much richer just starting a dry cleaners.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Bottom line is that it's much harder to get rich working for somebody else than it is working for yourself.

[GuyOnTilt]

Ive become really good friends with a few pros out here...and THEY are struggling.

Anybody who's struggling to make money playing poker right now is either under-bankrolled, has the worst game selection imaginable, or can't play cards. Any way you look at it, they're a bad poker player.

For me personally, picking up poker was the best thing I've ever done for myself. It's given me freedom and leisure that few kids have at my age. I'm happy with the decision I made to play professionally and I'm enjoying the life I have because of it. I'm not advocating anybody to take a "flier", but if somebody with the intelligence, discipline, and talent was seriously considering giving professional poker a shot, I'd encourage them to go for it.

GoT

[lacky]

I have a good situation too. The wife has a good job with full benifits!

[Lawrence Ng]

Outlaw,

As you can see from so many posts you need a solid bankroll to make sure you can sustain heavy short term swings that even the best poker players have.

It's just in my own personal experience that if you are mentally incapable of sustaining such short term losses that you should not play at all. It's just too demanding on you and will naturally throw you off your game.

Why take that chance? Why not find a job, build up a solid bankroll and then use that bankroll at a level of comfort at which you can afford. You will be surprised how much better your game will be.

What is your worst enemy in poker? It's tilt. And as Dr. Al put it, tilt comes in many forms. One of the stealthed forms is fear. Are you able to play on such a short bankroll without any fear?

I have never played poker on a semi-professional level unless I have always had a full time job of some sort or at least a part time job to cover my own personal expenses. Believe me, the stress and mental anguish it saves me is far more worth it than the potential BB/hr I could have earned playing poker. The trade off is worth it.

[Steve Giufre]

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[Anybody who's struggling to make money playing poker right now is either under-bankrolled, has the worst game selection imaginable, or can't play cards. Any way you look at it, they're a bad poker player.



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I think the reason most people fail is beacuse they arnt able to play there best game everyday. it is tough to wake up everyday and do the same thing over and over again, and deal with the aggravation of the bad beats, downswings, etc. But like you said, if you have the ability to do that, then you should be able to make a living. In my opinion thats the reason the majority of guys fail, not because of a lack of ability.

[adios]

I think you're probably right. FWIW IMO got to have your "A game" just about everyday and be willing to do frequent post mortems on your play no matter whether you win or lose. Even when you win a pot there may have been a better line of play.