False Economy

I’m in a good nine-handed 9/18 holdem game. Before the flop a moderately loose and aggressive player UTG raises, a very loose and aggressive player two seats to her left cold calls (VLAP), a loose player in late middle position three bets, the cutoff cold calls, and I call on the button with AK offsuit. Who would cap here (in LA the cap is three raises)?


The flop comes 5-5-5. UTG bets, VLAP calls, the pre flop three better calls, cutoff folds, and I just call. Would anyone raise here?


The turn is a nine. UTG bets, VLAP raises, pre flop three bettor folds and I fold. I doubt UTG has a five but VLAP could and I’m guessing some of my aces and kings are gone. Comments?


River is a king. UTG checks and calls VLAP. VLAP turns over 96 suited and UTG had a 77.


Upon reflection I believe I should have capped before the flop. I have position, it costs just one more bet, and gains me respect post flop. There is no way I’m bet and raised out of the pot had I done so. Not raising is just “false economy” when you have position and it only costs one more bet.


I’m also wondering if I should have raised on the flop. Perhaps I’m thinking based on results, but I believe I butchered this one. Flame away!

You just lose one more bet, the PP will not fold,you still lose the hand but why not raise anyway?

I wish you had posted the results in a separate post, because the first thought that went through my head was "not capping preflop is a big mistake".


Given your image, your position, and the people involved, I think you really want to play this one aggressively. Cement your positional advantage, and take control of the hand. From here the hand plays differently.


Once you get to the flop, I would raise. Chances are that no one has a 5, and really, I would assume that there is a good chance my hand is good. Aggressive UTG will bet with any ace as well as a pair, and VLAG would raise if he had anything at all. Preflop 3-bettor would certainly raise with a pair. So you really are heads up vs. UTG. I raise figuring there is a 50-60% chance that my hand is good. Be aggressive and protect your hand. Even if you are behind, the 19SB pot is laying you a big price for your 4 or 5 live outs.


I would play the rest of the hand based on that assumption, until action dictates otherwise. Raise the flop and plan to bet the turn if checked to, and calling if bet into. I would then take the free showdown on the river if it got that far.

I don't believe I've ever cold-called 3 bets in my life. At least I don't remember doing it. I'm going to 4-bet with A-A, K-K, Q-Q and A-Ks and fold everything else, including A-K and A-Qs.


Yeah, I fold A-K here. There's usually a bunch of my Aces and/or Kings used up by the time it gets to be 3 bets to me.


I honestly wouldn't know what to do in this hand once I just cold-called pre-flop. But this game is obviously a different animal than the game I play in, so I don't even know why I posted here.


Never mind.

[Ah - a game Lee recognizes :-) ]


I guess it depends on what image (if any) you have at the table. You and I both know that you're allowed (if not encouraged) to cap the betting preflop because


1. It's gone three bets already, and

2. Somebody will probably cap it anyway, and

3. You can't win a big pot if you don't build a big pot, and

4. You have 12 chips.


My point being that you putting on the cap won't necessarily give you any protection. It simply encourages somebody with a real hand to K-R you on the flop (you're gonna bet the flop no matter what hits?)


All that said, it might be correct to cap it simply for EV purposes. You've got the best hand, put money in the pot.


I suppose in this particular case, you bet the flop, UTG K-R's you. 96 gets out. You call. Now a 9 comes (96 groans). UTG may bet. You probably have six outs and call, getting the right price. River hits you, you win. But I don't know that this is a particularly frequent scenario.


Regards, Lee

Cap preflop, raise on the flop.


The flop is essentially a no-op. Everyone has the same ranks as they had before, and your hand is as good as it was before the flop. I cap the flop as well here. If it's heads up, I'm capping for a free card on the turn, crying call on the river. If it's multiway, I'm capping for the free card and deception. With six outs which are almost certainly good, you only need three opponents to be in a break-even situation *if* you are drawing, which isn't clear on the flop.


On the turn when it is bet and raised, I think you'd be obliged to call IF you'd put in the additional action before and on the flop.


I call one bet on the river no matter what falls, assuming that I had fully pumped the pot.


- Andrew

On the turn, if I count correctly, you are getting 13:2.


It is 6.67:1 against hitting an Ace or King. An Ace may scare players into checking, a King may or may not. You have some implied odds here, maybe 16:2.


If you make the favorable assumptions UTG just calls the turn raise, an Ace or King is good, and both will check and call the river when an Ace or King hits, the EV of calling here is: $6.26.


=((40/46)*(-2)+(6/46)*16)* $18


I would have probably played it the same way at the table.

If I choose to play my hand I will cap BTF with

my excellent position. Passing BTF in a loose

aggressive 9-18 game in a family pot can't be

that wrong if it is indeed. I think the hand

will play out a lot differently had you capped

BTF and you probably would have been around to see

a river card. Having called three bets BTF on the flop I would definetely raise. I would hope by

raising that the intial better would three bet the

pot and anyone with an Ace or King in their hand

would fold so I would not be playing for half the

pot.


Bruce

The good thing about how you played it is that you didn't change skirt size in mid dance. :-)


Ida capped it preflop and raised on the flop. The flop raise is more important than the preflop raise to me, and they both serve many purposes. One of the more subtle ones is that the early raises make it most unlikely that I'll be put to a test on the river with ace-high. IOW, if someone bets the river, and I haven't improved, then I can safely fold, but only because I showed layers of strength early. Same number of chips, two small bets, just a matter of appropriation.


Tommy

Pre-flop I'd just call--probably-- although in some games I'd likely muck. My reason for just calling is that IMExperience 'most' players won't cap it pre-flop IF they were the first to raise pre-flop with less than KK (note that this excludes the guy who has 46s on the button, finds it's three bets to him, and caps it for drill). So I call (or fold), and if the original pre-flop raiser four bets I give him credit for the hand and fold when I miss (or pay him off when I hit and he flops trips).


Another benefit to just calling is that you can represent a ton more hands on the flop. This clearly doesn't apply here, since you're going to have to showdown a winner to drag the chips, but in a hand with four players or so I'll often just call, raise if the flop comes ragged, and drag it on the turn with another bet (IF the pre-flop raiser only calls my flop raise. If he three bets it's a different problem entirely).


After all that, well, I don't know. I have a hard time giving a bad player credit for a 5 on the turn, since most fish will wait for the river to start barking if they flopped quads. That said, I'm pretty well programmed to muck to two cold on the turn with overcards, so I'd REALLY have to have a read on the situation to make the call there.


On the flop, though, I probably raise as you suggested. If there's no pocket pair out there (which is possible) I've got the second nut, and the investment of another sb seems worth if if it'll drive out hands like JT, etc.-- especially considering the size of the pot.

what's IOW stand for?

angry,


IOW stands for "in other words". Some use "i.e." in its place, which I believe is latin for "that is", but also works as "in other words" (I think).


John Cole would really know this one as well as Tommy.


Regards,


Rick

cole could give you significant events leading to derivation of the phrase, and the subtle differences...


tommy..give me the button..i raise...gl

I dunno...I play it like you do...


Reasons for not capping in no particular order other than the order in which they come to mind:


1. Suppose the flop comes with an Ace or a King. I think we would then be happy that we didn't cap it preflop. While we don't mind the betting getting capped, we do mind if everyone checks to us on the flop when we have hit and then they all call for 1 bet on the flop and turn. Besides, I would venture to guess that a good number of times, someone else will cap it preflop for us anyway. So, we get the best of both worlds: The pot is capped and we hide the strength of our hand.


2. We can represent a wider range of hands on the flop (albeit this is not a very important reason in the matrix of this hand as it's multibet and multiway).


3. Most importantly, we stand a better chance of finagling a field thinning raise on the turn when we catch a King or Ace on the flop or turn. Remember, the pot is big with just 3 bets preflop. We can make it bigger by capping it but by doing so, we take away some postflop thin the field weapons. The slight increase in pot size may not be enough to offset the postflop disadvantage. Not sure if that's right but something to think about...


4. If you just coldcall and the original raiser 4 bets it (and he is somewhat sane), you may be able to get out earlier in the hand as the dude is telling you that he has AA,KK or AKs.

"that is" is correct, from the latin id est .

>


My criteria for capping here is: if I think I have the best hand, no AA or KK out there, I cap. Especially with the cold callers in there.

In my experience one of these guys usually has a pair. You might also be against another AK and in a multiway pot I wouldn't like your chances that much then. Plus you just might be against a freak AA or KK and be in real trouble. Plus you are unsuited and the pot is multiway. I would be tempted indeed but I think mucking would usually be best unless these guys are completely loopy.

I agree that mucking should be a strong consideration, especially if the raiser, re-raiser, and any coldcallers are decent players.


For Rick's specific example, I think that a coldcall, or better yet a cap, are okay as the Aces and Kings are not necessarily very dead and Rick has the button. Both the raiser and especially the re-raising 6-9 suited dude sound pretty maniacal. Of course I'm basing this on the results, but I'm sure Rick had a good read on how these guys play.


Caddy

If I were going to play, which is likely, I would probably cap it as it is likely that it will be capped anyway. AK isn't strong enough to slowplay.


On the flop, I would fold for a couple reasons:


1. Could be drawing dead (5, AA). Probably unlikely, but possible.


2. Most important, a pocket pair will likely force a showdown. That means I need to pair up. But even if I do, there is a decent chance I'll then have to split the pot with someone holding an Ace or a King. So even if I pair up, I may be only taking down 1/2 the pot (or even a third).


3. I think AK is one of the most overplayed hands in poker. More people lose money with it than win, IMO. People seem to forget, that just because it occasionally holds up without improving, most of the time you need to connect with the flop to win.


Tim