another brier book question

Situation: Calling raises with AQo and KQs.


The recommend calling a lot of raises (even early raises) with these 2 holdings. They do state that if the raiser has tight raising requirements that these are mistakes, but for the most part they recommend calling raises with these hands, especially AQo.


I cant understand this, because when somebody raises in early position the hand is usually gonna be played 2 or 3 handed. So what do you do when you miss the flop and an early position player fires into you? You can't be confident that you have the best hand, so your probably gonna have to fold. And if you dont fold, your gonna pay a lot of money to see any pair or AK. And when you DO hit the flop you could very easily be dominated.


I can't stand playing hands where I dont know where I stand, and playing AQo or KQs after a raise puts me in this position everytime. I would rather run away and live to fight another day. Maybe I am giving up some equity pre-flop, but I think you lose equity in these situations post-flop because you are on the defense the entire hand.


The only advantage you have is position, and even that aint gonna matter if your dominated unless your up against a player that will lay down AK if it misses.

AQ offsuit plays better shorthanded than in a volume pot so you want 2 or 3 handed action. Furthermore, many players raise even from early position with suited connectors down to T-9, middle pocket pairs down to pocket sevens, and some even raise with two big cards like ace-jack, king-jack, and ace-ten. Against these players you are making a big mistake dumbing AQ offsuit. We do state that if the raiser is a solid player, like the type discussed in John Feeney's book "Inside The Poker Mind" ("AQ Test" essay) then you should fold. But many players do not play this way. Again, you have to know your opponents.


Once the flop comes, you will flop top pair about a third of the time and this could easily give you the best hand against typical players who raise with a variety of non-premium hands. If the raiser "fires into me", and I have flopped top pair with these hands I will frequently "fire back" with a raise.

Jim,


I have not read this part of your book. If you recommend calling early raises with AQo then I believe you are giving out bad advice. The reasons you give above for calling are all valid, I agree. But they are exceptions. Consistency is the only way to measure ones play. Varying from consistent play must be justified. The best advice for consistent play is to fold AQo to an early raise.


Vince

I believe cold-calling a raise can rarely be correct. We can think of situations where it probably is correct, but I agree with Vince that if I were to give general advice, it would be to never cold-call a raise. Either 3-bet or dump. If a guy is likely to open with T-9s or A-T, then why not raise him with A-Q? If he's super-tight and only opens with premium hands, then why not fold A-Q ala J. Feeney?

"never cold-call a raise"


Andy, I have just re-read Lee Jones, Lou Krieger, and 2+2. I have yet to find a well-known published source that advocates always folding or 3-betting with AQ in this situation.

Vince from Page 36 we state:


"Cold-calling a raise from a solid player with A-Q offsuit would be dangerous if the player adhered to the same high standards for his early position raises as we advocate...."


On Page 37, Problem # 3 we recommend folding this hand against a solid player and we state that it is a call against a typical player. Our answer is: "It depends" and we state the conditions for calling versus folding.


As someone once stated: "consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.".


If you are rountinely dumping A-Q offsuit regardless of the raiser you are giving up too much in my opinion.


As I stated under Andy's post, I have yet to find a published source that states unilaterally that one should always fold A-Q offsuit against an early raiser. If someone could point to anything in HPFAP-New Edition that states this, I would be grateful.

Regarding the play of A-Q versus an early position raise, here is what John Feeney states on Page 34:


"This does not mean AQ is never playable against a raise. Sometimes it is. Among the factors which bear on your decision are your position and that of your opponent, HIS RAISING STANDARDS (caps mine), and your opponent's skill level."

First, Andy's not saying to 'always' three-bet. He said it's probably 'rarely' correct to call (which is likely true). Second,he says that in 'general' he would tell someone to EITHER three-bet or dump it.


This has to be sound advice. An exception might be if a real loosie opened up for a raise and a bunch of players came in already; in this spot I'd probably just call. But if I have a chance to play heads up with someone who will raise pocket pairs 88 or higher UTG, or any two suiteds where the smallest card is a T, then I'll three bet just about every time. In fact, I can't think of a reason why someone WOULDN'T three-bet.


Also-- and this might be a function of the games we play in-- IMExperience a 'typical' player virtually never raises with a pair smaller than J's UTG or in early position, and almost never with two suiteds less than KQs.

I dont know about never cold-calling a raise, but I would never cold-call a raise with AQo. Either take control of the hand if you think your hand is best or dump it. I can't think of a single situation I would cold-call a raise with AQo.


Now, there are situations I could see cold-calling a raise with AQs or KQs.

Even though I've only read a small portion of their book I also noticed this, and I think they will frequently get into trouble, especially with the AQ. The reason for this is that they may be over looking an important fact -- I don't know for sure since I haven't read very much. And that fact is that there are still many players to act behind them.


Let me be a little more specific. The reason AQo is a "minimum" raising hand (for a good player) up front is because of his poor position. That is with a bunch of players still to act behind you raising with ATo should just get you in trouble because it is fairly easy to run into a better hand. When someone else has already raised, your chance of running into that better hand has gone up since the raiser may already have it as well as it being behind you.


Also, on this subject here is a short excerpt from pages 21 and 22 of HPFAP-21.


"While we are on the subject we also want to address loose raisers. That is players who have weak raising standards and thus frequently are first to put two bets in the pot. If you follow the above guidelines, you will mainly be playing only Group 1 and 2 hands against an early position raiser. However, against the aforementioned loose raiser you should go ahead and play AQ, 99, and 88, and probably reraise with them. (You should also be reraising with the Group 1 and Group 2 hands with the exception

of AJs and KQs which are still best to just call with.) Again, for this play to be correct your judgment must be accurate. If you are not

sure it is probably best to throw these additional hands away. (Also note that we are making a distinction between a loose raiser and a

loose game.)

First, Andy's not saying to 'always' three-bet. He said it's probably 'rarely' correct to call (which is likely true). Second,he says that in 'general' he would tell someone to EITHER three-bet or dump it.


This has to be sound advice. An exception might be if a real loosie opened up for a raise and a bunch of players came in already; in this spot I'd probably just call. But if I have a chance to play heads up with someone who will raise pocket pairs 88 or higher UTG, or any two suiteds where the smallest card is a T, then I'll three bet just about every time. In fact, I can't think of a reason why someone WOULDN'T three-bet.


Also-- and this might be a function of the games we play in-- IMExperience a 'typical' player virtually never raises with a pair smaller than J's UTG or in early position, and almost never with two suiteds less than KQs.


P.S. I read your response to Mason's 'Slotboom' post and thought it was right on.

"As I stated under Andy's post, I have yet to find a published source that states unilaterally that one should always fold A-Q offsuit against an early raiser. If someone could point to anything in HPFAP-New Edition that states this, I would be grateful."


See my post below. I quote a passage from our book which covers this.

I said that "if I were to give general advice, it would be to never cold-call a raise. Either 3-bet or dump." As Vince points out, "it depends" plays a big part in what to do in this situation. In my own experience, when I've cold-called raises not too many good things have happened. Again, if a guy is likely to open with T-9s or A-T, then why not raise him with A-Q? If he's super-tight and only opens with premium hands, then why not fold A-Q ala J. Feeney, especially if there are other tough players already involved or yet to be heard from?


Let's try this: I seldom cold-call with A-Q. Depending on the situation, I either muck or re-raise. Your mileage may vary.


By the way, I believe one of the things David listed in his recent article about what separates the real winners from the wannabes was to not cold-call raises; and I also think there is something in HPFAP about rarely cold-calling raises from any position, that you should generally be either 3-betting of folding. (Don't have either in front of me now, don't quote me.)

Here's a short excerpt from page 21 of HPFAP-21 that addresses your point.


"We want to pause and point out that you should not be calling many raises if no one else (except the raiser) has voluntarily entered the pot when playing hold ’em, no matter what your position or what your two starting cards are. You should usually either fold or occasionally reraise. We just mentioned that if the game is loose it can be correct to play a Group 3 hand in a raised

pot. However, to call a raise with a hand like


Qh Jh


before anyone else is in you need to be very sure that several other players are coming. If you are consistently wrong it can prove to be quite costly to your overall strategy. (The exception is if you are in the blind. This will be addressed later in the text.)

I'm waiting for David to step in here and remind us all how unimportant all this pre-flop discussion is.

"If you recommend calling early raises with AQo then I believe you are giving out bad advice. ... The best advice for consistent play is to fold AQo to an early raise."


I'm not sure why you put the phrase "consistent play" in there. Whatever, I think you're all wrong. The best play for me is to reraise.


Tommy

if the player raising was a solid tight player, then yes, id be more inclined to fold. but to just call it? no way. i wanna knock people out if i can. im reraising!!!


this hand sucks multiway.


if theyre were many callers between us, thats another matter since your not knocking anyone out at that point. so ya gotta think what they may be cold calling with.


KQs, can go either way depending again on the player raising and how many callers. since it plays well multiway, i may lean more towards just calling unless a couple players already coldcalled, then i might pop it again.


b

Limping denotes damage. And cold-calling is a yucky thing is sales. Maybe that's why we use these words to describe damaging, yucky things in poker. Doubtful anyone would argue against a claim that the biggest losers are limpers and cold-callers. That's enough evidence right there to keep me from doing either. I don't even need to know why.


Tommy

I agree. Although there are times that I would fold these hands, I would never call.

have an essay detailing how different ak and aq are....reread it just for the h of it...gl...lol...

Now that you mention it, it does sound terrible when you say "a limping cold-caller." It sounds insulting, akin to a sniveling weasel or something. It would sound better if a Britisher would say it.

This was something that must have been added in the new edition since it looks new.

(n/t)

(n/t)

Mason has pointed out to me that the HPFAP-New Edition does in fact support your position. I was mistaken. I believe the section of this in his book now in the new edition was not in my early version of this book.

What you say makes a lot of sense. Perhaps we need to reconsider our position on this.

. . .because it is unnecessary. Hey, any time I don't see eye to eye with either Mason Malmuth or Jim Brier, I worry. The only time you ever have to apologize to me is if you do something bad, and that just ain't in you. As usual, you're responding to everybody's comments about everything in your book with specifics and with respect. This forum and all others would be a helluva lot better if everyone had your character.

No, I have read the 21st Century Edition but I have also read and studied from the previous editions. Sometimes I overlook the additions which were woven into the basic text. My mistake.

You are probably right but I sure wish John had made this point clearer. I assumed "playable" meant cold-calling not 3-betting.