Stealing with Limpers

[Sam T.]

I've been doing a lot of thinking about the best strategy late in tournaments, whether on the bubble or ITM. Everyone has found themselves in the following position, and I'm wondering how to handle it:

You're short- or medium-stacked, on the button or CO, and it is at the point in the game where stealing is vital. The table is bubble-tight, so steals tend to go unchallenged. The situation is ripe, you're ready to raise and...some clown UTG limps.

Some situations:

-You're comfortably stacked, but still want to steal as much as possible. You've got a good hand to open with, but not one with which you would call a raise. An opponent limps. Do you fold and wait for another chance? Do you make your standard raise, and use your position against him on the flop? Or do you increase the amount of your raise to maximize the pressure on his call?

-You're absolutely desperate to steal, and willing to give it a try with virtually any two. With the limper, do you hit the "Abort" button and give it a shot from UTG or UTG+1? Or do you want the folding equity that a raise after the limper might give you? (Assume here that while you are short-stacked, you have enough chips that the limper would have to think about it before he called.)

One final (slightly off-topic) question: At what point do you start pushing with any two? 5xBB? More? Less?

I apologize if this is too general. I realize that someone will feel obliged to answer that "It depends on stack size/your image/your read of the limper/your read of the blinds/etc./" What I'm interested in is how a single limper usually changes your steal strategy. I guess I'm just hoping to read a few Philosophies of Theft.

[stupidsucker]

when I am going to steal and someone limps, I just see it as another BB I get to take down when I push. If I am up against a monster then oh well.

If the limper is loose or a big stack then I think twice about it, but most of the time, I ignore it as if I am still first in.

[Sam T.]

[ QUOTE ]
If the limper is loose or a big stack then I think twice about it

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume this is because the loose players are more likely to call with better junk than yours? (Your reply makes sense to me, I just want to make sure my thinking is the same.)

[Dominic]

If I'm desperate, I'll push with any two at anything under 4-5 BBs...in the situation described, I'd rather steal the blinds and limpers with a hand I will NOT call a reraise with...my favorite position for that is the big blind...late in the tourney, you've got 2 or 3 or limpers, the small blind calls, I make a reasonable raise - 3-4 times the BB...I think you're more likely to get called if you push it all-in - it looks suspicious...but if you make a normal raise, you have a chance of picking up a nice size pot...

look at John Juanda for this move...he employs it quite often with crap! 8-5os, 2-6, etc. If you try it with 10-9 or Q-10 you're more tempted to call somone's re-raise - which would usually be a big mistake.

[Meatmaw]

As per your request for general thoughts and not advice toward what to think of the limper, what I think of when I see that limp is basically:

1) more money to steal, i.e. instead of feeling like I have to steal once per round to survive, I'm looking at a little extra cash so it makes me *want* to go in more.

2) Less likelihood of SB or BB simply saying "he's just stealing" and going in on me on what they expect to be a coinflip *because* they see the UTG as a potential caller. This might actually help alleviate the fears of a big hand calling utg.

3) I'm a little more nervous about hands like KT which I might steal with but don't feel as comfortable considering to go against 2+ with.

4) I get really shy with PP under 88. I don't know, maybe this is irrational but seeing 3 or 4 overcards b/c of two callers or possibly automatically facing a two cards over 9, feels really dooming.

Of course, take these and *then* apply the stack considerations, player behavior assessment, voodoo raindance, and consultation to Miss Cleo, and I think you're good to go.

Please, experts, I'd love to hear comments on anything I've said blatantly wrong or right.

Thanks.

[Algasm]

One final (slightly off-topic) question: At what point do you start pushing with any two? 5xBB? More? Less?

I've been wondering this myself. How low do people go before you push with 2-7o? 3xBB?
Also when you are down to the final 3 and haven't seen a hand since last saturday. When does your 8-4o start looking particularly juicy?

[Meatmaw]

Certainly it depends on the size of stacks you'd be against and the distribution of the chips around the other players, but in general, when I fall under 5BB, I feel the cold hand of fate playing the game for me, because I feel like my stealing power is gone. No longer am I a rogue with a bastard sword +4 vs. darkness. I've missed my saving throw versus paralysis.

So I actually wait for more premium hands assuming i'll be up against 1 or 2 players until about the bitter end, possibly under 2 BB. What do people think of this?

Sorry for the D&D embellishment. I don't play, really. Tried a few times but I think it just felt too silly and overcomplicated. Poker....much.....more.....empowering....

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[NegativeEV]

Since you are looking for a general answer here, I'll avoid my temptation to say that I think this is one of the most player/read specific situations in SnG bubble play (i.e. the tendancies of the limper are critical). In general, we make our blind steal attemps based on the gap theory. With two random blind hands, the expected gap is high which allows us to push with many hands. The limper greatly reduces the expected gap benefit in my mind as they likely have a better than random hand. My push requirements go up significantly. I play low level SnGs ($10-$30), and my experience is that you can probably expect a call to your blind steal on these tables given the limper unless you have some feel for the players that would lead you to believe otherwise. Probably changes on the higher $ tables.