Help solve a debate about the value of raising with AK from sb

[Lmn55d]

Hi, maybe you guys can help me with this debate me and my friends are having. In a typical 2/4 or 3/6 party game online with 3 limpers, should you raise from sb with AKo/AKs? I say yes because you could knock out the big blind, but more importantly because the expected value of the hand is so high. My friend disagrees and says why dont you raise from sb in this same situation with TT by this reasoning(I usually limp because i feel the expected value is not quite as high...not sure what is right). So what is the correct play with AK and a hand like TT. He also favors limping with AK in no limit and says its better to limp and trap hands that you could destroy like kq instead of knocking them out (which i dont feel a raise at low level nl does anyway). I feel it is almost always better to raise and narrow down the field in nl to make it less likely that someone flops a dumb two pair or set against you, but i feel there is an argument about not wanting to play ak out of position in a raised pot with everyone in. Please help us settle this debate about AK in limit and nl, more importantly the first limit question. Please explain your reasoning theoretically.

[cnfuzzd]

Youre friend is weak tight. I hope you take lots of his money. Raise the blind anywhere with AKo for sheer value. 3bet if the raiser has looser standards or to knock out people. If you decide to, you are capping with a hand that is at least even money with the vast magority of hands.

Not raising or reraising with AKs has been described as a crime against humanity, although i think its more like paying someone else money and then kicking yourself in the testicles. Some of the biggest pots ive ever chopped have been my AKs vs AKo with me on a flush draw. Any hand that can provide TPTK, the nuts, and a lock with 4.1:1 odds of the absolute nuts on the river is worth more than a decent spouse. IMO.

peace

john nickle

ps. Raising TT out of the sb is more questionable. If you dont flop a set, you are out of position against a fairly large field with a raiser somewhere in there. If you think people will fold, maybe worth it, or if you are positive you can outplay them on the flop, its worth it. Maybe.

peace

john nickle

[cardcounter0]

"I say yes because you could knock out the big blind"

Buzzzz..... WRONG ANSWER. Thanks for playing, please try again.

You would raise in the SB in the hopes that the BB will CALL your raise, not fold. In fact, you hope that all 3 limpers call your raise.

[schwza]

in limit, AK loves to be heads up, even out of position.

[cardcounter0]

In limit, the more people that call your raise, the more you make in the long run.

[mikewvp]

The reason you raise with AK in the SB is so you get more money in the pot, that way when you hit TPTK there is enough money for the fish to draw and miss, in the long run making you much more money than not raising. Thats my take on it.

[mikewvp]

As for with TT, you don't raise because you are vulnerable to overcards, and if ANY jack queen king or ace hits you are most likely going to fold because there are three people in the pot and it is highly probable that one of them has a piece of it. So you call with TT, if an overcard comes you fold, if you find yourself with an overpair you checkraise to make people with cards higher than ten fold so they don't catch and beat you on the turn or river, this works best ofcourse if you check it down and the guy in last position makes a position bet, because you completely ruin anyone's odds, and if a flush draw comes along you make them pay a fine penny. However in the event you check the flop and the person to your immediate left bets, this play is essentially ruined because anyone who called thus far is not going anywhere.

[1 bag]

It is almost never correct to raise from the sb heres why.
For easy number let's say the sb is $5 and the bb is $10. If you call the sb (the bb does not raise) the pot is $50, thus you are getting 10:1 odds. If your raise and everbody calls (most likely they will being they already put in 1 bet) now the pot is $100,thus you are getting 6.7:1 odds.

Also not raising gives your hand deception. if you do raise the larger more attractive pot will keep players chasing and you get out drawn

Although the larger pot is more attractive raiseing the small blind is clearly the wrong play.

[Lunamondo]

The AK will miss the flop(/turn) just about as often as the TT. Another matter is then how AK vs. TT plays on profitability when they do not miss. TT feels like a better hand vs. two opponents, while it's not necessarily worse vs. three opponents but in case it's the best on the flop and gets calls from overcards it will get beaten if an overcard comes on the turn, though they pay for it, but still, while TT might not get more action than that when it "hits," until it hits a set when overcards are there or turns, while the AK is likely to get more action, though these factors do not factor directly with raising preflop, other than the chance of winning/money that dictates whether one is the favorite or not, and also considering what value deception has (I wouldn't go overrating it without a clear reason).

[cnfuzzd]

<<<It is almost never correct to raise from the sb heres why. For easy number let's say the sb is $5 and the bb is $10. If you call the sb (the bb does not raise) the pot is $50, thus you are getting 10:1 odds. If your raise and everbody calls (most likely they will being they already put in 1 bet) now the pot is $100,thus you are getting 6.7:1 odds. Also not raising gives your hand deception. if you do raise the larger more attractive pot will keep players chasing and you get out drawn>>>

Im going to assume that your "almost includes all hands that range from AA through AQs, any two cards that gives you a draw to a nut flush with several likely callers, any situation where raising will enable you to force through a mediocre hand and any situation where chris daddy cool is in the big blind. Otherwise, i might think you were spewing weak tight thinking all over the screen.

peace

john nickle

Although the larger pot is more attractive raiseing the small blind is clearly the wrong play.>>>

[EdSchurr]

TT is a favorite against AK (small though...and maybe the simulation assumes a showdown), all the other smaller pocket pairs, and I bet a huge number of other hands (given it vs AK). Preflop seems like the best time to raise it.

How does the SB and number of opponents change things?

[Monty Cantsin]

[ QUOTE ]
in limit, AK loves to be heads up, even out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
In limit, the more people that call your raise, the more you make in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Tastes great!

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Less filling!

[/ QUOTE ]

Whenever I see this debate about raising I always think that there's a main point being missed. You often, maybe even usually, don't raise for one purpose. You don't mind if the limpers call here, and you don't mind if they fold. What you do mind is letting them see the flop for one bet.

In other words, the important distinction is not between whether you prefer them to call an additional bet or fold. It's how much you prefer them to call an additional bet or fold to the third alternative.

1st (or 2nd) choice: Chocolate (them calling your raise)
2nd (or 1st) choice: Vanilla (them folding)
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Distant 3rd choice: Poke in the Eye with a Sharp Stick (them seeing flop cheaply)


Who's with me, huh? Huh?

/mc

[mikewvp]

If you have TT in a heads up situation then I would definately say raise because it is the favorite in a heads up situation. If you add one more person in there your chances of winning are severely diminished, while your individual chance of winning may be greater than opponent 1 with AK, and greater than opponent 2, with QJ or KQ etc, it is not greater than the combined chance that opponent 1 or 2 will win (you are in fact, playing against both of them). If you were anywhere else other than the button, I would say raise, but the question is specifically designed for the blinds, and since you will be out of position the rest of the game combined with the fact that TT is so easy to beat, I think you need to call and decide AFTER the flop how to play. If I have TT and the flop comes 2 7 4 (essentially trash, offsuit), I don't really want those opponents holding AK and QJ to have correct pot odds to call me down to 4th and 5th street because while in a heads up situation it isn't a huge problem, if you have three or fourway action you are in trouble. That is ofcourse assuming the overcard hits, if you DID raise with this hand and you end up flopping an overpair, don't slowdown make them pay for the draw, I am just saying I don't like to be up against 2 or 3 people drawing against a pair of tens.

On the other hand, if I have AK in the blinds, I will raise, because if I miss my flop I want to have the correct pot odds to draw to an ace or king on the turn, especially against a hand like TT. Do you see how with TT you want to cut down the field and with AK you don't care quite so much because if you hit top pair top kicker you aren't vulnerable to anything less than two pairs? Also I just want to mention again that raising from the blinds will not thin the field at all (with the exception of folding out the big blind if you are the small blind).

[RcrdBoy]

How about raising both of these hands because, in this scenario, you almost always have the best hand?

Think about the hands that a typical player limps in these positions and think about whether you want them to see the flop for one or two bets. I think in most cases 2 bets will almost always be the answer.

Not having position on TT can make it more difficult to play, but there are only a handfull of hands that are better before the flop and since it was limped to the SB it is far less likely they are in play. I don't think this is a raise every time, but not ever raising it is a mistake.

If you want to know the EV then check two-dimes or poker stove and run some of the numbers.

[astroglide]

this one was debated at length in 2 separate threads mostly by me and john feeney. search for it and you'll find some good points in the mess.

[Michael Davis]

You should raise with AK and AQ here. And the more I play, as I continue to see people limping with absolute garbage, I'm starting to consider AJ an autoraise here too.

-Michael

[astroglide]

at request of matrixmunki: first AK thread here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=625596&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=all&vc=1), second one here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=holdem&Number=688750&Forum =All_Forums&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=6813 27)