Folding KQo preflop after raising

[schubes]

I was playing around with PT and found this hand.

6-handed, I open raise in MP with KQo, CO 3-bets,...

CO is very loose preflop and goes way too far with hands. A typical hand might be: I raise, he cold calls, everyone else folds, I win a nice pot. But this is the first time he's 3-bet preflop.

...Button folds, SB cold calls, BB caps...

SB and BB have no trouble folding the blinds for one bet. I've even seen SB limp and then fold for one more bet. This is the first time I've seen BB raise.

...I fold?...

Is this obvious or terrible? I was of course paying close attention hoping I would've lost a big pot if I called. The results are a little interesting.

Edit: I don't want it to seem like my reads are that strong, I've played maybe 20 hands at this table.

[spydog]

Well, you probably are behind, but you only have to call 2 small bets and the action post-flop would be juicy enough to at least see the flop. Tread carefully if the flop doesn't hit you hard.

[schubes]

Not sure anyone's interested, but here are the results I promised:

CO has JJ, SB has AJo, BB has AA

From http://twodimes.net/h/?z=402476,
KQo 9.81%
JJ 8.97%
AJo 2.38%
AA 76.4%

Flop: (14 TEHero#####) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB bets, CO raises, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (10 TEHero*****) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, CO bets, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (13 TEHero*****) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, CO bets, SB calls, BB calls.

Final Pot: 16 TEHero*****

So I would've won a decent pot, but I was correct, at least in the TOP sense, to fold preflop. You're right that I need to consider my implied odds, especially with CO in, but I'll also have to pay off when I get top pair and I am dominated. I'm not sure how my hand fares normally, against some lineups I'm winning around 20%, against others I'm in as poor shape as AJo was in this hand. I prefer to get out of bad situations like this early, but I'm still not convinced either way /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Chiefs Fan]

I was playing at the 2+2 table last night, and hands get discussed as we play.

1 player brought this up, what hands are typically worth a 3-bet? the reasonable player would say a PP or AK and maybe AQs. And what hands are going to be capped? AA and KK definitely, QQ possibly and maybe AK, you are most likely way behind and folding PF is correct. Obviously you have to take into consideration who the player is, I've seen dorks cap with K4s and other such crap.

I'm a newb and I'm learning, but after that discussion last night, I feel better about laying hands like this down. A 3-bet and then a cap, there is likely to be fireworks on the flop and it will have to clobber you over the head to win.

I had a situation today where I was UTG and raised with AJs, a fold, CO 3-bet and button capped, I folded. the CO won with AKs for a flush, I was glad to know I laid it down correctly.

[schubes]

Good, now I feel better about missing the opportunity to take those PPs to the cleaners!

I don't play full tables, but I get the sense that this would be considered a fold w/o question there.
Looking at twodimes though, I was surprised that in most situations where I am dominated in one place, I still have decent odds to call (In terms of the total chance of winning). But this is still a difficult situation to be in postflop even given a 20% chance of winning. I think if my reads were different or if I had last position, this could swing to a call.

[Chiefs Fan]

I would be interested to hear what Naphand or Stripsqueez have to say.

I'm no expert by any means, I was relaying what was said at a 2+2 table last night and those guys definitely know what they are talking about. And we were discussing full table, not 6 max, which does change things.

Even at 6 max, the only hands I'd cap with are AA,KK, maybe QQ and AKs in some situations.

[naphand]

Now you cannot be saying that.....

There are a lot of long-term posters here with a great deal more experience than me, Strip being one of them, and whose posts are frequently beyond my current level of expertise. Maybe I can argue my case well, but

"If I have seen further than other men, it is because I have stood upon the shoulders of giants."

As Isaac the Newt once said.

There are also a number of newer posters who are contributing hugely to the debate, and who are probably better players than me.

In response to the post; I sometimes call and sometimes fold, you are getting 7:1 PF and are 10:1 - that just about makes it worth calling for the implied odds. But I would need better position, and a good grip on the game to feel comfortable about making this call. KQo is a good hand but one that is too easily dominated with this kind of action. You can be pretty sure TP is not going to be good enough (barring a table of crazies of the cap-with-any-2-suited type). You certainly should not feel any regrets for laying it down.

[Guido]

I would call this getting 7:1. You have to be able to lay it down when there is a lot of action postflop when you hit a Q or K. I think it's a close one and laying it down can't be a mistake if it's one at all.

I don't like the fold with AJs from Chief_Fan. AJs is too good getting about 5.75:1

Thanks,

Guido

[RustyCJ]

Well, I figure I pretty much have to make a flush, straight, trip jacks or 2 pair to win in that spot. An A is probably a big loser for me. If I was on the button I'd be more tempted to call, but I also had to act first with 2 raises behind me. Maybe I'm wrong to fold there, but until I get more experience I will get out for now.

[Guido]

Yes you have to hit hard. But you will get a four flush about 1 in 7.5 times. Combined with two pair, trips, and straight possibilities makes it a call IMO.

Guido

[stripsqueez]

i think its close

your implied odds are pretty good - the pots big and if you do hit hard you want to have played a big dog - your probably losing a lot of money if the flop comes Q - banana - grape though

i've folded crappy aces raised on the button that come back capped - sometimes other hands in this spot - i would call if i had suited cards

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[grinin]

PFR comes back around capped

KQo fold .... Good laydown. Live again to fight another day
AJs ... I take one off here, see what the flop brings