View Full Version : Successful SnG players:Are you usually short stacked when in the $?
AA suited
07-15-2004, 03:46 AM
i used to play 20+2, then moved up to 30+3 but found that i've been diviating from Aleo's guide more and more. I never followed the guide exactly to start with, but now when i'm the SB (or BB w/a raise in front), i'm calling with Kx, Ax, any 2 connectors, and any suited to name a few diviations. and i've been losing.
so i went back and started playing Aleo's guide exactly to see how the other extreme is. 16 10+1 games in 2 days. so far:
1st: 1
2nd: 1
3rd: 4
4th: 4
For an ITM of 37.5% and a ROI of ~0%.
all of my 5th-10th place finishes were due to bad beats. (both 10th place finishes i had QQ, raised preflop and someone re-riased me. the guide says go all in when re-raised. both times the opponent has AK and caught his A or K.)
anyway, i usually only win a couple of moderate pots. That allows me to last to the bubble. but i;m usually #3 stack or short stack when i'm there.
since i usually have less than 9BB, any raise by me would take me to 6BB or less, thus i should go all-in instead. if called and i win, then i'm in pretty good shape with 12-18BB. if everyone folds, then the blinds i've just stolen will pay for another orbit.
if nothing comes, and i'm down to 3BB, then i have to go all in with marginal hands. if others fold, then i've just stolen the blinds to last me another orbit.
if i'm called and i win, then i'm up to 6BB. (obviously, if i lose then i'm out.)
Rinse and repeat till i outlast the #4 player.
by following the guide exactly, i find that i'm down to 3BB more often than the way i normally play. Thus more coin flip situations.
Now for my normal play, i also use Aleo's guide but with some tweaks. i find that i'm not down to 3BB as often at the bubble, thus less times i have to go all-in with marginal hands. but my ITM % is about the same. (In my small sample of 16 10+1's, i would have expected a lower ITM% since i'm forced to play marginal hands more often. but i've been lucky with the coin flips.) /images/graemlins/smile.gif
In any case, i'm usually the short stack when i make it to ITM. And my strategy for ITM is the same as bubble. ie: steal blinds to survive, go all in if my bet/raise is 40%+ of my stack, and go all in with marginal hands when i'm down to 3BB. rinse + repeat.
For you successful low limit Party SnG players (10/1, 20/2, 30/3), do you find yourself the #3 stack a majority of the time when you're ITM?
If not, then what are you doing differently than what i'm doing?
THX
RollaJ
07-15-2004, 09:25 AM
I am usually one of the lowest stacks when we get to 5-6 handed, that is because I hardly ever gamble in the first 2 rounds and rarely in the third. I then totally switch gears when we get to the $100 BB and I see on PT that is where I win most of my money. That is when people are scared to call 250 as it will criple them, thus it is also when I start raising /images/graemlins/wink.gif. Its pretty basic tourney strategy, simmilar to people on the bubble in a big tourney. I only play NL, this might not work as well at limit
AA suited
07-15-2004, 10:52 AM
hm..i've had the opposite experience. (but then again it's based on a small sample of 16 10+1's.)
anyway, the guide says at lvl 4+, raise 3bb from any position when you have:
1. 77-AA, AK, AQ
2. AKs-ATs, KQs-KJs, QJs, JTs
if i don't improve on the flop, i'm crippled.
- if there's a 1/2 pot bet or better in front of me, i fold. (correct??)
- if it's checked to me, i bet 1/2 pot. if called/raised, i check/fold to the river.
- now i can bet pot if checked to me, but that usually makes me committed so i would push instead. Is this better than 1/2 pot bet and check/fold to the river???
- As for a large bet in front of me, i could raise and go all-in. is this better than folding?
so far i've lost more chips than i've gained by doing this. but as i said, it's only a sample size of 16.
also, you're only raising 2.5BB? do you find that as effective as 3BB?
thx
djcolts
07-15-2004, 11:01 AM
If you are short-stacked (around 600 to 700) and are on level four, and you make a 3XBB raise, even the guide says that since that is more than 40% if your stack, that you should go all-in pre-flop instead.
I find this as a better play for me, anyway, because my post-flop play is probably my biggest weakness right now - so this covers up some holes in my 10+1 SNG game.
RollaJ
07-15-2004, 11:43 AM
[ QUOTE ]
also, you're only raising 2.5BB? do you find that as effective as 3BB?
[/ QUOTE ]
This is tried and true, I know Raymer uses this strategy too. Sometimes you will be at a table with people where 2x the BB is sufficient and I might stab at a few of those with 8-10, 67, and ugly hands like that. Very often people just dont want to get involved and you will steal the blinds, otherwise they may call and you out flop them, worst case scenario the y reraise and you fold. Note the reraise when there are 3 or 4 people left is very rare as people are just soooo scared of going out in 3rd or worse yet 4th...... DO NOT play that way, if you lose you lose, but make sure to make the best play to get you first, 1st place is the holy grail in online SNGs and is worth SOOOO much more than 2nd or 3rd.
To give you an idea of my SNG style of play, The best advice I ever read for online SNGs was a year or 2 ago by Russ G of RGP (of all people /images/graemlins/tongue.gif) He said the best way to play them was to hit post and fold for the first 2 rounds. Of course this is a bit extreme as anyone is better off just playing AA and KK or AKs and going all in pf, but the main idea is to be VERY selective at those stages. Other people have since echoed that statement, Im pretty sure Lee Jones mentioned that in Card Player, and Roy Cooke may have too a few months ago, but I am not positive.
AA suited
07-15-2004, 01:10 PM
[ QUOTE ]
If you are short-stacked (around 600 to 700) and are on level four, and you make a 3XBB raise, even the guide says that since that is more than 40% if your stack, that you should go all-in pre-flop instead.
I find this as a better play for me, anyway, because my post-flop play is probably my biggest weakness right now - so this covers up some holes in my 10+1 SNG game.
[/ QUOTE ]
by lvl 4, i've usually won at least 1 moderate pot, so i'm around 1000. a 3BB raise at lvl 4 is 300, so for me it's only 30%. (if you're at 750, then a 300 raise is 40%.) but yeah, i will go all in with 77 at lvl 4 if my stack is below 750, per the guide. (that situation hasnt come up yet in the 16 SnG's i've played so far.)
AA suited
07-15-2004, 01:17 PM
Death Valley,
What do u think of my flop play? and what would you have done in those situations?
Holm Fries
07-15-2004, 01:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I am usually one of the lowest stacks when we get to 5-6 handed, that is because I hardly ever gamble in the first 2 rounds and rarely in the third. I then totally switch gears when we get to the $100 BB and I see on PT that is where I win most of my money. That is when people are scared to call 250 as it will criple them, thus it is also when I start raising /images/graemlins/wink.gif. Its pretty basic tourney strategy, simmilar to people on the bubble in a big tourney. I only play NL, this might not work as well at limit
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually as I was reading the initial post I related this to my limit SNG experience. I typically find myself watching the fireworks the first several orbits as people will go to war with marginal hands. Sure, I will sometimes catch cards and either build a stack or get sucked out. However, I usually will enter the final 5 as the 3 or 4th chip stack. Then as the blinds go up, it is easier to use your tight/aggressive style to steal blinds etc. I find then I am able to either build a large stack in these latter rounds so that I have a big advantage heads up or end up going out in 3/4. I don't take second a whole lot. It is sometimes frustrating as you are patient throughout the early rounds of the tourny and at times catch a big hand that gets beat by inferior starting cards. Overall though, I think this strategy gets the most money. As tight/aggressive play usually will.
djcolts
07-15-2004, 01:52 PM
OK. I'm often at 600 to 700 at level 4 - so I guess I'm used to all-in or fold time by then.
AA suited
07-16-2004, 12:01 AM
[ QUOTE ]
OK. I'm often at 600 to 700 at level 4 - so I guess I'm used to all-in or fold time by then.
[/ QUOTE ]
and what are your results when you push with good cards at this point? do you make more chips than you lose?
Cosimo
07-16-2004, 02:22 AM
A couple quick points. One is that 16 SNGs is a tiny sample. The other is that 66 vs AK is a coinflip; it's not a bad beat.
I'll limp with a few more hands (mostly Axs) than the guide suggests in the first round, or in the second round from the BB. I'm trying this out to see what happens, so I don't suggest it. Sometimes I get lucky (which means 150% of my original stack going into level 4), sometimes I get very unlucky (50% of my stack due to a great hand gone wrong).
lacky
07-16-2004, 04:31 AM
always good to analize and question, but ive been beating the $55's for a long time, and two days ago in 16 trys i got 2 3rds. Tonight, in 17 i got 3 1st, 4 2nds and 3 3rds.
Look harder after at least 100.
Steve
patrick dicaprio
07-16-2004, 08:46 AM
losing with QQ is not a bad beat to AK. I really hesitate to go all in with QQ. if reraised i will usually call and see what develops. compare this to a guy who raises when I have QQ and act after him which is a different situation.
without watching your play my guess is that youarent aggressive enough in the middle levels. you can steal quite a few blinds from any position once it gets down to five or six. you usually can build a stack this way with good judgment.
Pat
patrick dicaprio
07-16-2004, 08:48 AM
reraising here is a good strategy with weaker hands as you point out. often if there is a small raise you can reraise with any two cards and take it down, thereby getting the blinds plus the small raise. similar thinks are true when there are limpers.
Pat
djcolts
07-16-2004, 09:14 AM
Yeah, I think I do. I've had a couple of 1st places in the last couple of days where I was extremely shortstacked (under 500 chips) at some point, but eventually won the SNG. Either everyone folds and I take the blinds and stay alive, or I'm in at least a 50/50 shot of winning most of the time, so it seems to be effective.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK. I'm often at 600 to 700 at level 4 - so I guess I'm used to all-in or fold time by then.
[/ QUOTE ]
and what are your results when you push with good cards at this point? do you make more chips than you lose?
[/ QUOTE ]
RollaJ
07-16-2004, 11:39 AM
Sometimes Ill raise 2-2.5 BB when 3-4 handed, when people are the most scared of losing chips.
Of the hands you listed :
1. 77-AA, AK, AQ
2. AKs-ATs, KQs-KJs, QJs, JTs
Id leave out QJs and JTs, maybe Id limp with those or try a 2BB raise, but to me that hand is the same as 45s.
For most of those hands, if I had 9BB left I am probably just making it 2.5BB, if I had 7 BB left (or less) I am going all in. I want to make it very hard for people to call. Id usually even do it with AA as Id be moving in a lot so Id hope for a kall from someone with A-8, K-T etc.
BTW once I am one of the big stax, Ill raise any hand I play to 3xBB AA or 79s they all get raised, take advantage of scared money
SparkMan
07-16-2004, 01:02 PM
If your play on the bubble is above average then I prefer the turbo SNG's on PS. They last about the same length of time, but when you get to the bigger blinds you don't seem to be as far behind the bigger stacks if you haven't won a pot yet. Also in the early stages you can afford to see 2 or 3 flops for cheap. On party if you do that and miss each time you're severely short stacked going into the 50/100 blind round.
Algasm
07-16-2004, 02:02 PM
AA,
I get into pretty much the same situation as Death Valley and end up just pushing my T700 or so when the BB is T100. So far in the 33 $30 I've played I've got 9 firsts 1 second and 7 3rds. I also have 2 4ths and 9 5ths. So I either bust out in 5th or make the money. My ROI is 70% in this same small sample set. I'm going to stick with playing tight and going all in when the blinds reach T100. It seems like I always get one decent hand on the bubble that gets called where I'm 70/30 to win. When I double to 1400 I can usually make the money. Hope this helps.
Jason Strasser
07-16-2004, 02:23 PM
In general, this is how my stack progression goes.
In the first 3 rounds I'll either have doubled up against a crazy, be eliminated by either running into a monster with a monster of my own (or be eliminated by silly [censored]), but most likely I'll be somewhere around 800-900 chips. I may've had AK and raised, and then missed the flop and check/folded 3 handed, or something like that. I'd say I'd average about 850 chips by the time I'm at level 5.
Then when its 100/200, I'm almost always in push/fold mode. From there I either double up, get eliminated, but most of the time steal blinds to usually creep up into the 1000-1400 range. Then its more of the same. I'm usually not the small stack when we are down to 3, but often I am.
AA, my impression of you as a player is that you are trying to be far too mechanical. There is no guide to winning poker. It doesn't exist. Apply concepts, play ABC poker, and think for yourself. Post some hands where you faced some tough decisions, and we'll try to help you out.
FyrFytr998
07-16-2004, 02:49 PM
I hardly ever make it to the money in first. Most of the time I'm third. I then wait a few to see if second tightens up or goes for the jugular and adjust my play from there.
AA suited
07-16-2004, 03:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
From strassa2:
In general, this is how my stack progression goes.
In the first 3 rounds I'll either have doubled up against a crazy, be eliminated by either running into a monster with a monster of my own (or be eliminated by silly [censored]), but most likely I'll be somewhere around 800-900 chips. I may've had AK and raised, and then missed the flop and check/folded 3 handed, or something like that. I'd say I'd average about 850 chips by the time I'm at level 5.
Then when its 100/200, I'm almost always in push/fold mode. From there I either double up, get eliminated, but most of the time steal blinds to usually creep up into the 1000-1400 range. Then its more of the same. I'm usually not the small stack when we are down to 3, but often I am.
AA, my impression of you as a player is that you are trying to be far too mechanical. There is no guide to winning poker. It doesn't exist. Apply concepts, play ABC poker, and think for yourself. Post some hands where you faced some tough decisions, and we'll try to help you out.
[/ QUOTE ]
ahh..glad a good player like yourself has around the same chip avg as myself. plus it sounds like the way you play is similair to mine:
never limp in the later rounds. raise or fold. and if the raise mkes you commited, push instead. rinse and repeat.
is that considered mechanical play? and i thought ABC poker was mechanical play? if not, then what is it?
Jason Strasser
07-16-2004, 03:18 PM
When I was referring to mechanical, I was saying that the tone of your post was like this. "I had QQ, I raised 1/2 pot like the guide said, and I went all-in, because the guide said to." Or, "I flopped top pair, the guide says to bet XYZ, so I bet XYZ." Poker is about adjustments. Sure, 98% or more of the decisions are ABC poker, but what makes someone good is the ability to adjust and mix it up.
Cosimo
07-16-2004, 04:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
BTW once I am one of the big stax, Ill raise any hand I play to 3xBB AA or 79s they all get raised, take advantage of scared money
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a hole in my game. What do you do when you are a short stack, and there's four or five left? Any hand I'd play I open-raise for 3xBB. The stronger ones I'll reraise all-in, the weaker ones get folded.
1 Outer
07-16-2004, 05:23 PM
I'm usually second or third when in the $. I'm pretty tight early on and let the maniacs blow their stack or pay me off later. I need to become more aggressive as the middle rounds occur but I must be doing something right by getting in the $.
Not being higher when in the $ could also be because you aren't maximizing your strong hands. Sometimes you'll simply get no action no matter what you bet but this may be something worth looking into.
1 Outer
smartalecc5
07-16-2004, 08:31 PM
you asked: are succesful players shortstacked?
I can answer- no.
AA suited
07-17-2004, 12:32 AM
[ QUOTE ]
you asked: are succesful players shortstacked?
I can answer- no.
[/ QUOTE ]
can you tell me how you usually play?
jnh24
07-17-2004, 08:42 AM
What/Where is Aleo's guide?
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