The Quest To Figure Out Why I Suck, Part 1

[BrettK]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="C00000">Hero (t725)</font>
UTG (t150)
<font color="C00000">UTG+1 (t450)</font>
<font color="C00000">MP1 (t525)</font>
MP2 (t2425)
MP3 (t1195)
CO (t440)
Button (t1400)
SB (t690)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t50, MP1 raises to t100, MP2 folds, MP3 calls t100, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls t75, Hero calls t50, UTG+1 calls t50.

Flop: (t500) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB bets t50, Hero raises to t625 (All-In), UTG+1 calls t350 (All-In), MP1 calls t425 (All-In), MP3 folds, SB folds.

Turn: (t1950) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players, 3 all-in)</font>

River: (t1950) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players, 3 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t1950

Good? Bad? Thanks

Brett

[Jurollo]

I would say bad, bad, bad. You have two raisers out front of you, I would even think about laying this down preflop with the two raisers out front. If you do decide to play it then going all-in out front is a horrible play because you had the two raisers out front and they could be on higher PP, i would say TT or JJ is likely for 1 of the 2 here and maybe A7 or an AQ/QJ played poorly. A T100-T150 bet should be enough, maybe T250 if you are that scared of overcards or the flush.

[Dominic]

okay, Brett...my analysis of your play....by the way, I don't think it was horrible.

Pre-flop I re-raise to $300-$350 and I bet you get at least the UTG+1 out and maybe even one more out. Of course, I'm going on an average hand and not this specific one, since I don't know what they had! You must re-raise here because in a multi-way pot you're big dog with 99 unless you flop a set, so you want to get it down to either one or two other players at most.

Now, another way is to play like you did, see if you hit the set on the flop - or the flop gives you an overpair like it did this time - and go on from there. Usually, you'll have at least one card bigger than your 99s on the flop and will have to check it, right? Easy to get away from then if someone bets. But this flop is different: against one or two other players, it's a great flop for you; against more than that - with all those callers on pre-flop - I'm thinking it's a strong possibility that someone flopped a set with their baby PP.

You had the right idea to bet here, and with your size stack, all-in is an okay play. But I might have waited for someone else to make a reasonable bet, then come over the top of them...

Also, if you wanted to play the hand all-in, it'd be better to put everyone to the test pre-flop. Your bet on the flop only gets a call if you're beat - where is the value in this bet?? Someone either has a bigger PP than you or they've flopped a set if you get a call. So...make a mini-bet...half the size of the pot. If you get raised, you have a decision to make based on your knowledge of the player doing the raising.

I don't think your play was bad...a little passive pre-flop and a little agressive on the flop...but again, you had the right idea. If someone flopped a baby set to beat your overpair - oh well. Thems the breaks. And you SHOULD still entertain the possibility that the original re-raiser has an overpair, as well...10s, JJ, whatever. It's a possibility, right? And maybe worth playing the flop a little less agressively.

Anyway, I'm no expert and it's just my two cents. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[BrettK]

Okay, so the verdict is that I should have either raised or folded preflop? My thinking was that I was getting 7:1 on a call (8:1 if the last guy came along), which would give me plenty, along with the implied odds, to play it at least to the flop. If I had raised and two of the people had folded, would it have been correct to push against the same flop?
I agree that my flop play was crap. You guys suggested a min-raise, right?
Thanks for the help. I'm blown away by the fact that I'm so much worse on Party than I was on UB, but plays like this certainly contribute, I guess. I'll find some others to post soon.

Brett

[Cry Me A River]

I just like to just point out that with 9 players this is really, really early in a SNG to be making an all-in play with a marginal hand and 2 other players in the pot who are short(ish) stacked so the possibility of doubling or trippling up is going to be very appealing to them.

I'd also like to point out that there's potentially both a flush and straight draw available on the flop. This early in a tourney, unless you're playing in a game with a big buy-in (??) you will get people willing to chase those (particularly shorter stacks like your friends in this pot) so not only do you have to worry about a bigger pocket pair and a flopped set but also getting sucked out.

Personally, I hate mid to small pockets early in a tournament because it's easy to overplay them and they tend to get punished by maniacs and calling stations who'll play with any face card and then pair up on the board. I tend to treat them similarly to suited connectors - Try to see the flop cheaply or ram &amp; jam a little depending on the table/callers, but don't get too attached to them because mostly you're just going to check/fold unless your flop hits.

[Jurollo]

Cry hit my point exactly. You could very well be ahead in this hand on the flop and if this were later in the tourney I would say go for it. But this early it isnt worth putting your whole stack on the line with marginal hands, especially with an attractive flush draw out there for a maniac.

[Cry Me A River]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, so the verdict is that I should have either raised or folded preflop? My thinking was that I was getting 7:1 on a call (8:1 if the last guy came along), which would give me plenty, along with the implied odds, to play it at least to the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

At the risk of David Sklansky taking me out back and beating me with a stick, I think that in tournament play there can be more important factors than pot odds. In particular with all-in situations which tend to mean that if you loose, you're not out a little money as in a ring game, rather you're out of the tournament.

Pot odds is all about long-term thinking - ie: You may loose 4 times out of 5, but that single win is big enough to make up for all those losses. That's very applicable in a ring game where it's cash in your wallet. But in a tournament loosing 4 all-ins means you're out of the tournament 4 times and winning that 1 time in 5 is no guarantee you're going to win the tournament.

So in tournaments pot odds apply in situations that won't put you out (particularly early!) or get you in serious trouble. You don't win any money unless you finish ITM, so pot odds up to that point are rather moot.

[ QUOTE ]

If I had raised and two of the people had folded, would it have been correct to push against the same flop?


[/ QUOTE ]

Only way I see pushing is against a single limper, maybe two limpers if I know they're loose and play crap.

[ QUOTE ]

I agree that my flop play was crap. You guys suggested a min-raise, right?


[/ QUOTE ]

You have a very beatable hand, you want to raise enough to convince people with junk to fold so they don't hit something on the turn/river but not enough so that you're crippled on the very good chance your hand is no good.

[BrettK]

Jurollo, I just noticed that you're from MA. I'm in Worcester.

How about this hand? I don't have the tournament report from Party yet, because I was out soon after this hand and they're still playing. It went something like this:

With the blinds at 15/30, I was dealt JJ on the button. I still had about 800, and stacks were relatively even. UTG raised to 100 and it was folded around to me. I doubled the bet (bad idea?) and both blinds folded. He checked. The flop came Queen rag rag and he checked. What's best?

I ended up betting about 200, which was not quite pot. He pushed. How about now? Obvious fold?

Thanks,
Brett

[Jurollo]

I call the 100, if not even fold (i play tight as hell early), and maybe 100 on the flop to see where you stand. That way when he pushes, give him credit for the Q and you are only out 200, which is what you were out preflop before. In essensce your reraise 100 doesnt do anything, he is not going to fold for the extra 100 as he would be stealing in that early a position. So you are just committing yourself 100 more preflop.

[Cry Me A River]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm blown away by the fact that I'm so much worse on Party than I was on UB,

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're running up against the difference between UB and Party. UB is generally a better, tighter player so they'll give your big raises much more respect and this kind of move (the post-flop push) has a much better chance of causing the other two to fold. On Party, particularly early in a tournament, they'll call you all he way.

The reason you're making the push is to force the other two players to fold, particularly if they have better hands. If they're just going to call then you've lost the reason for your push.

In this type of environment, IMHO, if you're pushing prior to the bubble you're almost certainly making a mistake unless you're short stacked and under pressure from the blinds or you have the nuts or some other monster (there's no such thing as a pre-flop monster early in a tournament) or you have some other very specific reason to do so (ie: You have a read on a player as tight passive and know he'll to fold a good hand to pressure from a big raise). Unless you want calls, do not push.

It's just not a good idea to be in a coin-flip for 9th place!

[Cry Me A River]

[ QUOTE ]

You could very well be ahead in this hand on the flop and if this were later in the tourney I would say go for it. But this early it isnt worth putting your whole stack on the line with marginal hands, especially with an attractive flush draw out there for a maniac.


[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly! On the bubble is a whole 'nother ballgame and ITM is a whole 'nother still.

But early on, even if you double up it's basically meaningless. An extra 700 chips once you get head to head is nothing. The downside to an early all-in far outweighs the upside unless it's a sure thing.

My goal (10 player SNG) is to hit the bubble with 80-120% of starting chips. Less is fine, particularly if you're playing against bad players who'll let you steal blinds and call your monsters all-in with middle-pairs. If I happen to hit a monster early and suck somebody(s) in, that's great but it's strictly bonus.

[Cry Me A River]

[ QUOTE ]
With the blinds at 15/30, I was dealt JJ on the button. I still had about 800, and stacks were relatively even. UTG raised to 100 and it was folded around to me. I doubled the bet (bad idea?) and both blinds folded. He checked.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'd probably limp to see the flop and see how he bets it. Early on there's a lot of players who'll raise with any face card trying to build a stack quickly so I wouldn't give him too, too much credit unless I know him as a good player.

However, I'd be ready to dump if the flop was bad news.

[ QUOTE ]

The flop came Queen rag rag and he checked. What's best?


[/ QUOTE ]

And the flop was bad news.

Because you raised pre-flop you've set yourself up for a checkraise so I'm pretty suspicious of his check (He had a hand good enough to raise UTG, but now a Q is scaring him from betting? Or, he was hoping for a flop?). He may have had AK or KJ or even Ax or Kx, but there are an awful lot of hands he could have which are way ahead of you - Any big pair, AQ, KQ, maybe Qx if he's loose. He may have had lower pocket pairs and flopped a set. (Could he be on a flush draw?)

I'd just check it through. You don't really want to commit any more money to this hand.

I think your only other option is to push. This isn't a hand you want to take to showdown against a UTG raiser with an overcard on the board. And I would never, ever push this pre-bubble (see above). (probably not ever, actually, but I think it's the only other move).

[ QUOTE ]

I ended up betting about 200, which was not quite pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like this at all - Why are you betting? There are basically two reasons to bet - To make a pot you expect to win bigger and/or to force players who may have or may make a better hand than you to fold.

You have no real idea where you stand right now, except that your opponent was showing strength pre-flop, so you can't have any reasonable expectation to win this pot.

Given that he's already raised pre-flop UTG he's unlikely to fold to a pot sized bet.

The only way you make this raise is if for some reason you think he's got junk, and unless you've picked up some tell (??) I can't see how you come to this conclusion.

[ QUOTE ]

He pushed. How about now? Obvious fold?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[cferejohn]

First off, no way do you fold this pretlop. There is some value to survival, but if you flop a set, clearly in this field you have a excellent chance of doubling up or more.

That flop looks good, but with all the callers an overpair or a set have to loom large in your mind. I think a smaller flop raise, or even a flat-call of the minbet (intending to fold to a big raise and make a big bet on the turn if there are only calls nothing scary hits) could be correct.

The flop raise made it so only worse hands were going to call. *Maybe* A7 if he, umm, sucks.

[Jurollo]

brett a dropped you a private message about local home games, get back to me whenever you get a chance.

[Hood]

I think there's some mad advice in this thread. You can't raise to 300-350 PF like suggested, as you've only got 725 in front of you at the start of the hand, and that would commit you.

Folding this pre-flop is also a bad move - you've been asked to call 50 in to a pot of 400 - that's more than enough for set value.

Saying that you shouldn't push on the flop 'because there's flush and straight draws on' I think is fundamentally wrong - I'm happy to get someone calling an all-in with two diamonds or 58. They'll be making a fundamental mistake, calling 625 in to a 500 pot on their draw.

And saying that you should bet not all-in on the flop is really bad advice, I think. When you have a best hand but people will draw to better hands, you have to bet the pot so they make a mistake by calling. Betting the pot commits you, so it's an easy all-in if you want to bet.

And saying that you will only get called by better hands I think is a) wrong (top pairs, flush draws, straight draws, overcards, lower PP with a gutshot draw, could call) and b) ignoring fold equity. Which is high with such a bad flop for PF raisers and facing a larger-than-pot bet.

And I don't think you can just flat-call on the flop. What are you waiting for? To spike a 9 on the turn? Even if you do, that could have made someone a straight. You've got your hand now, it's not going to improve. Play it and get all your money in, or if you really want, fold it.

Personally, I like how you played it. Unless you had a read that PF raisers and callers would only do so with pocket pairs, you've got to figure yourself ahead. *because* there are draws on you should get all-in on the flop, as this makes them pay to draw, removes their implied odds, and forces them to make a mistake by calling if they want to go on.

I reckon when you got the money in you were the fav.

edit: loads of spelling mistakes.

[Hood]

Also just wanted to add - I don't think you should push pre-flop - there's a good chance you could be called by overcards. By calling, you are playing for 'set or overcard' value.

Yes, you could be up against a bigger PP, but that's the way it goes. If overcards had come, it would have been an easy fold - but you got a good flop, and you can't shy away from it now.

[NotMitch]

[ QUOTE ]
Also just wanted to add - I don't think you should push pre-flop - there's a good chance you could be called by overcards. By calling, you are playing for 'set or overcard' value.

Yes, you could be up against a bigger PP, but that's the way it goes. If overcards had come, it would have been an easy fold - but you got a good flop, and you can't shy away from it now.

[/ QUOTE ]

With T400 in the pot when it gets to you in the BB if you push and get called by overcards you are a favorite and the pot is giving you much better than even money. The best case is everyone folds and you pick up the pot uncontested but being called by overcards isn't exactly a bad thing in this spot. At this point in the tourney chip EV and cash EV is still fairly close and this is too much of an overlay to pass up. So folding out of fear of a call from overcards is wrong.

If I play the hand I don't think pushing preflop is a bad play at all, however with the min raise preflop it is a little scary.

[Hood]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also just wanted to add - I don't think you should push pre-flop - there's a good chance you could be called by overcards. By calling, you are playing for 'set or overcard' value.

Yes, you could be up against a bigger PP, but that's the way it goes. If overcards had come, it would have been an easy fold - but you got a good flop, and you can't shy away from it now.

[/ QUOTE ]

With T400 in the pot when it gets to you in the BB if you push and get called by overcards you are a favorite and the pot is giving you much better than even money. The best case is everyone folds and you pick up the pot uncontested but being called by overcards isn't exactly a bad thing in this spot. At this point in the tourney chip EV and cash EV is still fairly close and this is too much of an overlay to pass up. So folding out of fear of a call from overcards is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly wasn't suggesting folding pre-flop. But by just calling, you get to see where you are on the flop without committing many chips. Even for set value you can just call here, and I think the overpair has value too. You are pretty much 50/50 with overcards, odds which I don't want to take early on.

[ QUOTE ]

If I play the hand I don't think pushing preflop is a bad play at all, however with the min raise preflop it is a little scary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think that min-raiser has a better hand than our 9's overpair?

[NotMitch]

[ QUOTE ]

I certainly wasn't suggesting folding pre-flop. But by just calling, you get to see where you are on the flop without committing many chips. Even for set value you can just call here, and I think the overpair has value too. You are pretty much 50/50 with overcards, odds which I don't want to take early on.

[/ QUOTE ]

With the extra T400 in the pot you really should want to get called from overcards. If called by overcards the pot is going to be about about, T400 (whats in the pot) + T675 (the rest of your stack) + T675 (the call from over cards) , so its T1750. If you win 55% of the time thats T962.5 of equity in this situation, a big overlay for you. Yes I hate coin flips too but with the extra money in the pot you have to take them sometimes.


[ QUOTE ]

Do you think that min-raiser has a better hand than our 9's overpair?

[/ QUOTE ]


Maybe, some people minraise with junk, some with small pocket pairs, some with monsters, it is very player specific.

[BrettK]

Oh crud. You all make good points and now I have no idea who's right. Heh.

As it turned out, I was called by tens and a set of twos, so I was beaten twice. It's hard not to be results-oriented when down $170 after 30 SNGs, but I think the poster who said that this play might be good on UB but not on Party was right.

Thanks for the responses,
Brett

[Jason Strasser]

Not trying to sound evil or anything, but there is some really awful advice in this thread, as Hood said.

You did not play this hand too bad IMO. There is one and only ONE play to do preflop, and that is to call. Reraising is an awful idea. Folding is awful. You have more than necessary odds to call and play set/fold.

Now the flop comes, and it looks sexy. I have no idea what some people are saying, but if I don't have a set, this flop is good as well. You *could* flat call the flop, especially if the players at your level would tend to min raise with big pairs, and fold to a raise as Cferejohn said. Or you could raise, and the only appropriate raise here is all-in. You can't raise to 300 and then fold. Thats dumb.

You didn't play this hand bad at all. Some advice here again is scary how off IMO it is.

Then again, this is just my opinion,
-Jason

[Sam T.]

Thanks, Hood. I was reading the earlier advice and wondering if I'd lost my mind.

Your play was fine.

[NotMitch]

Jason,

If you are willing to push with an overpair on the flop why isn't all in preflop better? Unless you feel people could fold better overpairs on the flop I dont see the advantage. The more I think about this it seems like the is almost a no set no bet situation post flop once you call preflop.

[NotMitch]

So I had more time to think I have thoughts, this is going be long and unfocused, and only about situations when we flop an overpair. And Jason I know what you were saying isnt just shove it in when you have an overpair, in fact your comments were very good, so sorry if my first post sounded like I had a bone to pick.

It seems like there are 3 types of hands you are up against here, the good, the bad and the ugly. So we need to think about where we are against these hands preflop and the times we flop an overpair.

The good: Underpairs to our 9's, various unpaired cards under 9. Pre flop we are in great shape against these hands. When we flop an overpair most of the time we are going to be in good shape against there hands but we are only going to get action from them when they flop a set or 2 pair and that isn't good.

The bad: Overcards. Pre flop we are in good but not great shape against overcards and most good players arent really anxious to get all the chips in the pot in a coin flip. When we flop an overpair we get into a much better spot against overcards, it would be very hard for AK to call an all in on an 8 high flop.

The bad: An overpair, we are boned pre flop and boned when we flop an overpair.

Summary: On the flops where we wind up with an overpair we have given overcards a chance to fold, and hands that were behind a chance to out flop us. It also seems like we are only going to action when we are beat if we push on the flop. So I think if you are willing to go to the felt with the nines preflop is the spot, but the best play is calling preflop and folding when you don't flop a set (or maybe an OESD and an overpair). Sorry that this rambles, I have a long commute to think these things over.

[BrettK]

Okay, I was reading the thread about min-betting with draws from EP earlier, and when this situation came up it looked like something similar, which is why I raised on the flop. Bad? Horrible? Thanks.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="C00000">Hero (t975)</font>
BB (t800)
UTG (t635)
<font color="C00000">UTG+1 (t800)</font>
UTG+2 (t1005)
MP1 (t785)
MP2 (t685)
MP3 (t770)
CO (t775)
Button (t770)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t15, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls t15, CO calls t15, Button folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t75) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets t15</font>, UTG+1 calls t15, MP3 folds, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t75</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls t60.

Turn: (t240) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks.

River: (t240) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets t15</font>, Hero calls t15.

Final Pot: t270

Here's the other hand from that SNG that confused me a bit.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="C00000">Hero (t1140)</font>
MP2 (t740)
MP3 (t710)
<font color="C00000">CO (t650)</font>
Button (t960)
SB (t800)
BB (t745)
UTG (t755)
UTG+1 (t790)
UTG+2 (t710)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls t15, Hero calls t15, MP2 folds, MP3 calls t15, CO calls t15, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t90) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets t15</font>, SB folds, BB calls t15, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls t15, MP3 calls t15.

Turn: (t150) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets t175</font>, MP3 folds, <font color="CC3333">CO raises to t350</font>, BB folds, Hero calls t175.

River: (t850) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets t125</font>, Hero calls t125.

Final Pot: t1100

Set him all in on the turn? Don't play it in the first place?

Thanks again,
Brett

[Jason Strasser]

NM,

I appreciate the time you took to think things out and such. I didn't say I loved this play, FYI, I just said I didnt think it was a bad one. There was some advice about betting 300 and then folding to a RR, and stuff like that. In my opinion, this isnt the best spot in the world to commit your chips, but if you are going to play the hand, you have to go all in. Sure there is the possibility of being behind, but there is also the possibility that A7 and the likes will call you all-in.

Assuming that you are beat with an overpair is not the best thing to do long run. I wondered when i first read the thread if a lot of the same stuff would've been written if the hand results weren't posted.

Peace,
-Jason