What do I do on the turn? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

View Full Version : What do I do on the turn?

MagicRat

07-14-2004, 04:04 PM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, Hero raises, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 4 folds, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
UTG bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero ...

Would anyone ever semi-bluff raise in this situation?? Is calling SOP??

Rest of my play o.k.?? Normally I'd bet out on the flop with 2 overcards and backdoor draw - don't know what I was thinking! /images/graemlins/confused.gif Check-raise maybe?? Think I was on slight tilt from running bad earlier this a.m.

Thx!

flair1239

07-14-2004, 04:28 PM

This is tough. I would guess that right now at leat one of your overcards is dead, as I would tend to give MP3 credit for top pair with a high kicker.

With 5 people in and a fairly large pot, I think a raise would not knock out too many people.

I am not sure but I would just call, even though that seems like a weak play to me.

J.R.

07-14-2004, 04:33 PM

I'd probably bet the flop, you have a lot of outs, might get the button, and might drive out a hand that might beat you if you pair and they pick up a turn gutshot (the idea being on a coordinated board in abig pot where you hand complements the board, it can be costly if you catch an overcard out and then end up losing to a runner-runner straight on the river- this isn't a huge consideration, but since you will call a flop bet why not bet it yourself).

I don't think you have enough equity to check-raise this flop after checking.

I don't the like the turn raise because you will get 3-bet by lots of hands (unless they think you slowplayed JJ) and there is little bluff in a semi-bluff raise here, the best hand will liekly be shown down and I am not sure you equity is that great. I'd rather call the turn and raise when a non club T rivers.

lil'

07-14-2004, 04:35 PM

I'd bet the flop here with a gutshot, 2 overcards and a backdoor draw.

I'd call this turn bet as well. Raising probably will not get you anywhere.

bdk3clash

07-14-2004, 04:42 PM

What they said. Bet the flop. Given that you didn't bet the flop, call the turn. I'm not sure what the advantage of raising is.

Tuneman

07-14-2004, 04:45 PM

Tell me what you guys think of this: I would called on flop, just cause you have a lotta outs and without anything and two calls behind you its too much to checkraise, and then folded on the turn. What do you guys think? The reason I would fold is because you gotta believe that the bettor or the two callers on the flop have to have floped a pair....

flair1239

07-14-2004, 04:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Tell me what you guys think of this: I would called on flop, just cause you have a lotta outs and without anything and two calls behind you its too much to checkraise, and then folded on the turn. What do you guys think? The reason I would fold is because you gotta believe that the bettor or the two callers on the flop have to have floped a pair....

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree. I think even if you disregard the king or the Queen from your out count assuming that it would give somebody 2 pair, you still have the 10 and one of your over cards, I think that the pot odds justify a call here.

Joe826

07-14-2004, 05:01 PM

Hey Tuneman,

This is pretty weak thinking and will cost you quite a bit. On the flop flop he as many as 10 clean outs, including a backdoor flush draw to the second nuts. The best reason for betting this flop is not because you believe everyone will fold, but because the pot is pretty big already, and it's worth trying to win immediately (i.e. increase your chances of winning it by narrowing the field). That means betting and maybe even being happy with getting raised (so other players have to call 2) on the flop since it may "clean-up" alot of your K/Q outs. Hopefully you can get out any lone aces as well and the hands that would pickup straight draws or made straights when you hit your pair.

Joe826

07-14-2004, 05:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I am not sure but I would just call, even though that seems like a weak play to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Flair,

Is every play where you just call an inherently weak and therefore bad play? I had this same sort of thinking when I first started because I was getting TAG crammed down my throat, but whether a play is "weak" or not doesn't really matter, what really matters is the actual value of the play. In this case just calling the turn is much better.

MagicRat

07-14-2004, 05:04 PM

Turn: (8.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
UTG bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

I suppose a total pessimist could see there being only 3 outs (non-flush 10s) but the call is really easy, isn't it?

River: (13.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
UTG checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero ...

Raising the river? Seems like asking for trouble as no one will call unless they've got the flush, correct??

My mention of a semi-bluff raise on the Turn was kind of like a "Red Herring" in that I've read about it but guess I don't really understand a situation in which it would be useful/appropriate. Maybe if I had a nut flush draw?? Fewer big cards on the flop??

bdk3clash

07-14-2004, 05:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am not sure but I would just call, even though that seems like a weak play to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Flair,

Is every play where you just call an inherently weak and therefore bad play? I had this same sort of thinking when I first started because I was getting TAG crammed down my throat, but whether a play is "weak" or not doesn't really matter, what really matters is the actual value of the play. In this case just calling the turn is much better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling != weak. Calling is better than raising here, I think.

bdk3clash

07-14-2004, 05:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (8.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
UTG bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

I suppose a total pessimist could see there being only 3 outs (non-flush 10s) but the call is really easy, isn't it?

River: (13.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
UTG checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero ...

Raising the river? Seems like asking for trouble as no one will call unless they've got the flush, correct??

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, have you seen what they call down with? They'll call with much, much worse. Easy raise.

Joe826

07-14-2004, 05:12 PM

"Calling != weak. Calling is better than raising here, I think."

That's exactly my point..

flair1239

07-14-2004, 05:15 PM

bdk3clash

07-14-2004, 05:19 PM

Tight AGgressive.

flair1239

07-14-2004, 05:23 PM

thank you

MVicuna

07-14-2004, 05:45 PM

Hi,

Its unlikely they will raise raise unless they have the flush. They'll call with 2 pairs, smaller straights, overly optomistic pairs.

And you can't fold if they do raise because 2 pair and smaller straights will raise.

You might want to go for the over calls considering there are 3 people behind you that might fold if you raise.

People will disagree with that line, but I think you might earn more if you just call. These are unknowns to me, so thats why I think this. With known calling stations behind me I raise.

MarkV.

Tuneman

07-14-2004, 06:41 PM

Ok well that kidna what I ment by betting on the flop, you want to win it right there. The reason I said not to call is cause I thought that he wasn't getting even money for the pot odds vs. his odds of winning. With him having about 10 outs on the turn, and 5 players currently in the hand. Maybe I am confused, what would you say his odds of winning are, plus how do we know the pot odds if we don't know how much the flop bet was?