Another $2-$5 Hand

[DOTTT]

Still 6 handed. utg makes it $25 to go, my friend is utg+1 with AQs and calls, all fold to the bb who looks like he’s about to raise but then just calls.

Utg is an aggressive player, that plays very well post flop, bb is just a loose calling station.

The flop comes.

Ac 7s 3h.

bb checks, utg bets $50, hero calls, bb calls as well.

The turn is 9s.

bb checks, utg bets 50 again, hero calls, and bb calls as well.

River 5c.

bb checks, utg bets $50, hero makes it $100, bb folds, and utg calls.

utg has A8d, and my friend takes down the pot.

So first, how could my friend have gotten more out of this hand. Second, does AQ deserve a re raise 6 handed? Third isn't a turn raise a must here?

[sdplayerb]

He showed weakness underbetting the pot on the turn. It is a big pot (although chip stacks info is needed).

I hate the river raise. Trying to milk $50 out of a pot that is over $300 makes no sense since if the UTG player has a huge hand he'll repop you, and you won't know where you are.

You also say the UTG player is good..really doesn't look like it to me. He played completely terrible on the turn and river.

[Richie Rich]

According to HPFAP (not sure which page number...maybe under "Call or Raise?"), I believe Sklansky recommends to call behind the intial bettor (UTG) in hopes to keep the weak-caller (BB) in the hand. But in the example that Sklansky gave, he only did this on the flop.

I agree with this theory, on the flop, but also think that a turn-raise would be more appropriate for our hero since: (a) UTG is aggressive and is likely to call a raise, & (b) BB could be lucky to catch something like two pair on the river. While a raise on the turn wouldn't put any more money in the middle than in DOTTT's original example, it would make it "bigger" for a the purpose of a value raise on the river against one opponent -- and an "aggressive" one, at that.

With TP2K and nut flush draw, I think it's advantageous and higher +EV for our Hero to play "probably the best hand" more aggressively on a non-draw board. Especially since there are a handful of cards that could possibly hurt him vs. two players on the river. Anyone disagree?

[Zag]

[ QUOTE ]
With TP2K and nut flush draw, I think it's advantageous and higher +EV for our Hero to play more aggressively on a non-draw board. Anyone disagree?

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure. I will.

I would say that the non-draw board is exactly the time that you can afford to play wounded wing, and let the over-aggressive player tie his own noose. When there is a draw out there, that is the time that you can't afford to let the third player come along for cheap (or the over-aggressive player, either, who might be semi-bluffing).

I will assert that, against an over-aggressive player, you certainly want to take the passive approach occasionally. (I'll say 20-30% of the time, though we don't need to agree on the percentage.) If we can agree that it is correct to do it at least sometimes, then it stands to reason that the time you want to do it is when there are not any likely draws out there.

[DOTTT]

Sorry my friend has $550 in front of him and both players had him covered by about $400.

I don't think he played it very badly, I think he knew he was beat and was ready to throw the had away if he got poped.

[AJo Go All In]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's advantageous and higher +EV for our Hero to play "probably the best hand" more aggressively on a non-draw board.

[/ QUOTE ]


what? this is backwards. you should be more inclined to be aggressive with made hands when there is a draw, not when there isn't one.

[AJo Go All In]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's advantageous and higher +EV for our Hero to play "probably the best hand" more aggressively on a non-draw board.

[/ QUOTE ]


what? this is backwards. you should be more inclined to be aggressive with made hands when there is a draw, not when there isn't one.

[Wayfare]

I certaintly would not have played the hand this way.

First and foremost, min-raising the end is a very questionable play, because your friend cannot stand a re-raise, especially on those stacks. I don't think the other guys played it well at all either, especially on the turn. Raising A8o UTG 5x the BB one of the best ways I can think of to get yourself in horrible trouble, mostly due to position and weakness of kicker.

Are the 2-5 games really this soft on a regular basis?

[Richie Rich]

Now that I re-read my closing, I realize how stupid my last assertion sounds. What I was really trying to emphasize is that our Hero's seemingly strong hand should make a value/information bet before the river...calling an aggressive player is pretty weak, especially if you can get more money out of him. Since there isn't a draw on the board, maybe our hero is against two pair or a set. Maybe his TP2K is good. But why raise on the river to find that out?

[ML4L]

Hey DOTTT,

First, let me say that stack sizes would be particularly helpful on this hand. But, I'm assuming that everyone has at least $400 as in your other post. The important point is at the bottom discussing the turn...

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Utg is an aggressive player, that plays very well post flop

[/ QUOTE ]

If this hand is representative, I strongly disagree with the "plays very well" part.

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So first, how could my friend have gotten more out of this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

By being up against AA and rivering the flush... /images/graemlins/grin.gif As the cards lay, I doubt that he could have gotten much more. The river raise is a little smallish; a raise to $150 would probably be called as well. But, I feel that your friend played this hand expertly (more on that in a sec).

[ QUOTE ]
Second, does AQ deserve a re raise 6 handed?

[/ QUOTE ]

In some games, definitely; in others, never. Most games, I reraise sometimes and call sometimes. Be more inclined to reraise if the players play too loosely and/or poorly postflop. Sorry, not much of an answer, but I feel like it's fairly game-dependent.

[ QUOTE ]
Third isn't a turn raise a must here?

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Absolutely not. This is very similar to muzungu's recent hand where he semi-bluffed a flop and got check-raised. His own action killed his chance to outdraw a good hand. If you raise here, you are driving out the hands that you beat, such as AJ, and killing your implied odds on the draw that you just picked up, because any big hand is going to fire back here. So, when behind, you will get the money in before you know whether you're gonna hit, when you have been given a GREAT price on a draw. Add in the loose player coming along, who might make two pair or a set when you make a flush.

If the guy is a yahoo who would have played A8 for his stack, then of course you raise. Also, if you suspect that you are behind (with A2s, for example), a raise is more acceptable, because you will fold out better hands and you still have plenty of outs if called. But, AK/AQ is right on the line here where you are only folding out better hands. Thus, the best line is to call and then value bet/raise the river.

It is instinct to want to raise when you suspect that you have the best hand already and it gets better. But, although aggression is a key to big-bet, it is not ALWAYS the proper approach, as the other $2/$5 hand that you posted illustrates.

Great post.

ML4L

[sdplayerb]

Well he wasted $150 on it, $100 basically on bluffs and $50 on a weak call after a the raise (although he pretty much had to call it).
The $50 bet on the river was pretty bad.

[DOTTT]

Thanks for the great reply ML.

I agree utg played this very poorly, but I’m guessing my friend had seen him play a lot of hands much better.

Your explanation of why not to raise the turn is excellent. I think your right, when we have a hand we think it best and can improve to be the nuts we tend to get too aggressive, even though it isn’t the best way to get more out of our opponets.