I played this hand poorly... advice appreciated

[VegasVixen]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (9 handed)

SB ($$123.95)
BB ($$16.35)
UTG ($$462.70)
UTG+1 ($$121.80)
MP1 ($$99.05)
MP2 ($$183.75)
MP3 ($$80)
CO ($$255.25)
Hero ($$515.55)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls $2, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 (poster) checks, CO calls $2, Hero calls $2, SB raises to $6, BB folds, UTG calls $4, MP3 calls $4, CO calls $4, Hero calls $4.

Flop: ($33) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, MP3 bets $2, CO folds, Hero calls $2, SB calls $2, UTG folds.

<font color="blue"> </font> Dream flop.... but I'm being greedy...

Turn: ($39) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, MP3 bets $4, Hero calls $4, SB folds.

<font color="blue"> </font> I don't like the Q, scared of a boat. At this point I'm kicking myself for just calling on the flop... I believe JQ would have been a hand that he would have called the PreFlop raise with...

River: ($47) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
MP3 bets $12, Hero calls $12.

<font color="blue"> </font> Again, no more than a call, scared of a boat...

Final Pot: $71

Results in white below: <font color="white">
MP3 shows 9s Kc (one pair, queens).
Hero shows 8c Ac (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins $71. </font>

[turnipmonster]

raise the flop. another club will kill your action, and you are going to win an especially big pot if some yahoo has a smaller flush.

--turnipmonster

[theBruiser500]

Not raising the river is absolutely awful.

[Ionphore]

I just think you need to be more confident in yourself in these situations. Also it seems incredibly important when you have a great hand - but not the nutz - to test the waters. By testing the waters I mean not calling him all the way down with his very weak bets. I mean reraising at some point - probably the turn or river. I mean if he pushes sure you are now in a quandry, but by making these calls - what if the board paired again - and now he really does topple your flush. Your hand is just too good to be hiding. You need to test the waters - otherwise you will never know what he has. And if you are nervous about driving him out with a reraise - you can always just play back a little - see what his response. If he folds - thats fine - you don't have to showdown your hand. I personally wouldn't want players knowing I was limping with Ax suited because they could use this against me.

[cjs]

bruiser, why are you not afraid of a boat?

cjs

[muzungu]

Other reasons to raise the flop:

1. More money in the pot now means a bigger pot, which means you are able to get more money in later.

2. Raising here can be deceptive. I mean, you'd raise with AQo/QJo here, right? One way to play the hand is to represent something like top pair and raise as if you are trying to charge the field to draw to the flush. If you get called, you have a range of profitable plays based on the deception you have created. If a 4th club comes, for example, someone with a club may think they are ahead. Regardless of what comes, you could consider checking the turn, making it look like you have fired your one shot with your Q and you are done, and hope that they will take over the initiative and/or bluff at the pot on the river. Plus, like turnip said, a small flush could set you in on the flop. I could go on, but i think you see the potential for good things here.

Way to show restraint on the turn/river. You could raise the turn, thinking you are still ahead and not wanting the board to pair twice, but you'd be folding to a reraise. Calling down is probably fine too.

-muz

[theBruiser500]

I'd be a lot more inclined to give this guy credit for one queen, in which case vegas in in good position to raise and get some value for his flush (cause the other guy woudl have trips), if this guy then comes over the top, i'd say the odsd he's blfufing are about 0% and you acn safely fold. That will rarely happent hough, most of the time he'll call with a worse hand.

[Richie Rich]

Couple things I don't understand...

** MP3 has a relatively small stack, and you have a big one...so why the timid play as if you could lose your entire stack in this hand?

** MP3 bet $2 into a $33 pot on the flop when you've got the nut flush....you have to raise it up to at least $10-15, especially since a 4th club would probably kill the chances of your hand extracting any value bets from opponents. Most players with two pair or set are likely to call, so start the auction.

** MP3 bet weak AGAIN on the turn...no value-info-raise? If there's anytime to do it, this is it! Could save you from losing a half-size pot bet (or bigger) on the river if MP3 does have the boat at this point.

** If MP3 actually did have a boat, don't you think he would've bet SOMEthing (i.e. more than 1/4 of the pot) on the river to extract value for his hand? I used to think there were always monsters under my bed, too, but you need to play better than that...otherwise you'll continue to leave a lot of money on the table.

MP3's bluff-bet (if you even want to call it that) was pretty bad/worthless on the river...but I think the way you played the turn &amp; river was almost as bad.

[muzungu]

Good god, bruise, raising the river is horrible. You don't want to reopen the betting with the nut flush on a paired board. Given the villain's betting sequence it seems reasonable that they have either 1) not much/nothing or 2)a monster. So, if they have 1) they aren't going to pay off your river value bet, and if they have 2) they are going to reraise you and you are going to be absolutely screwed. So you get nothing or screwed- not much of a tradeoff.

Slansky has a rule about this- something along the lines of "don't raise on the river if a reraise is going to make you vomit".

-muz

[turnipmonster]

good points! you have the nuts. why not raise when you have the nuts? I raise all the time without the nuts, so now I'm going to turn into a calling station whenever I flop the joint? play a pot here and raise the flop.

--turnipmonster

[theBruiser500]

I can't believe you wouldn't raise the river. I would raise it 100% of the time. A monster coudl be a queen and another card with a club. This guys most likely holding is a queen, or even a smaller flush. I don't know why you think he has a monster or nothing, I could also see a medium holding here. RIASEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!11

[Wayfare]

With the nuts on the flop, you want to make the pot big enough so that people will have to pay you off on the turn and / or river if you continue to like your hand. I would raise the pot on the flop to $20, if someone flopped a set or two pair I might be able to get all-in right there with the nuts. On the turn, if the board pairs and he pushes in, you can get your read and then make your call / fold. In this case, if I misclicked or something and didn't raise the flop, I would definately raise the turn in order to see IF the other guy has me beat. However, if you do get a reraise you have still not determined whether he has the flush or boat for SURE, because the made flush might also be slowplaying it for value.

If the board doesn't pair by the river, (2/3 of the time), you want to get the pot quite large compared to your stack in order to get maximum value.

[ML4L]

[ QUOTE ]
raise the flop. another club will kill your action, and you are going to win an especially big pot if some yahoo has a smaller flush.

--turnipmonster

[/ QUOTE ]

I just used the term 'yahoo' in a reply to another thread. Hadn't ever seen it used around here before... Creepy.

Sorry, no poker content... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Mike

[VegasVixen]

Thank you everyone for all of your views &amp; responses on this hand. As you can tell by the title of the post, I knew I played it very poorly and your insight will be very valuable the next time I'm in a similar situation. Your advice is sincerely appreciated! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
Not raising the river is absolutely awful.

[/ QUOTE ]
raising the river is awful. the end.

set sail...