KQ after a pf raise with lots of callers

[kgrad5]

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $0.75 (All-In), UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (13 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players, 1 all-in)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (19 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players, 1 all-in)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 22 BB

comments on all streets please?

[easypete]

I think you played it well.

UTG+1 is short stacked... could have anything and is all in on the flop.

You have 5 opponents seeing the flop. UTG+1 bets, good raise. I may have capped here with the probable best hand.

Good bet on turn to not give CO a free card if on flush or straight draw. CO raise on turn. I dunno. Weak Queen, flush draw, or straight draw.

Good value bet on river. Especially in light of the thread in Small Stakes right now.

[spamuell]

Pre-flop: Fold. If UTG + 1 is raising AA, KK, QQ, AK or AQ you're pretty screwed. If he is raising AJ, JJ, TT, 99 then you're still not in a fantastic position although should call, but basically there lots of hands you're screwed by here, I think you can't really cold-call. Ah, I notice on the flop that UTG+1 is nearly all in, that changes things, I don't think a call is all that bad.

Flop: Fine

Turn: What do you put CO on? After the flop I'm thinking possibly AQ, 54s or a set of 4s or 5s or maybe a flush draw. This makes playing the turn very difficult but I think you should check and fold as most hands that he could have other than the flush draw (which he will probably check behind) and 54s cripple you. Gah, I feel weak-tight. Given that you bet, I think you should fold to the raise.

River: I don't know why you didn't check-call here, it seems unlikely you are ahead and getting raised would be a bitch.

[kgrad5]

exactly what i was thinking, dont want to give a free card on that turn his reraise had me thinking though, if he raised the river i dunno what i would have done..

[kgrad5]

i had him on a flush draw with AQ in the back of my mind, raise didnt faze me with short stack doing the raising, i was worried about the free card on the turn, then bet for value on the river (after i suspected his flush busted), if he raised i think i probably would have folded or maybe made the crying call..

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
Pre-flop: Fold. If UTG + 1 is raising AA, KK, QQ, AK or AQ you're pretty screwed. If he is raising AJ, JJ, TT, 99 then you're still not in a fantastic position although should call, but basically there lots of hands you're screwed by here, I think you can't really cold-call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about that... UTG+1 is short stacked. This could just low pockets. I really don't respect short stack raises pf. I've seen many more loose raises than legit ones. But I think your right about cold-calling... 3-betting pf may have been better, but the two cold-callers ahead of kgrad made me think that cold-calling may be ok here.

[spamuell]

Hmm, it seems our opinions differ easypete. I must admit, this one really had me perplexed. I agree you don't want to give the CO a free card if he is on a draw but you also can't just assume he has a worse hand than you:

[ QUOTE ]
CO raise on turn. I dunno. Weak Queen, flush draw, or straight draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know why you would think the latter two, a weak queen I can just about buy but I don't think you will see it all that often. Judging the CO's actions, it seems likely when he raises the turn that you are beat.

[ QUOTE ]

Good value bet on river. Especially in light of the thread in Small Stakes right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is, given the hands that the CO has been representing, he may well raise the river if you bet, although he didn't here (although this is OK if you fold to the raise). Also, if he does have a draw like you thought on the turn, he won't call but he might bluff the river.

In response to your other post which I just read: Why did you just quote my first two sentences without the qualifier that as UTG+1 is shortstacked it is not as bad to cold-call, and then tell me that as UTG+1 is shortstacked, cold-calling is ok? Yeah, I think 3-betting is better.

[adanthar]

Hmm...you coldcall KQ preflop (okay, since he's short stacked it's debatable), then raise the flop (good). Now CO 3-bets. This is not good, but the board is draw heavy enough for him to have a draw. [Note that he CANNOT have a total bluff, because UTG just went all in and even a real fish is going to understand that doing this with an all in player is stupid.]

On to the turn. You put him on a draw (debatable; would most micro players 3 bet a draw, as opposed to CC?) and bet. He now raises. Unless he's a maniac, or possibly has exactly 76 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, why on Earth do you think you have him beat here?

Prediction: You got called by a slightly scared better hand on the river (I'd be scared if I held AA and the action went raise/bet/bet, too), and on the off chance you actually won this line will fail at least 9 out of the next 10 times you try it when he raises the river again and you lose to a set.

In the other thread, you wind up saying 'I played my (KK with an A on the flop) too weak; next time, I'll bet the turn and river'. I think you're confusing 'weak' with 'maniacal'.

[kgrad5]

well i would bet the turn and river if there was no raise.. if someone pushes back thats a different story.. in this situation i think a river check call/fold was probably better then leading the river which is one of the reasons i posted the hand, or maybe even a turn fold

[chief444]

What percentage of .5/1 players 3-bet the flop with a draw or other hand you are ahead of? My thought at that point is it is unlikely you are ahead with TPKK. Certainly after the turn raise it is very likely you are behind. Why bet the river when it appears there is a reasonable chance you will be raised? I doubt if you would fold to a raise with this big of a pot right? I think you overplayed this hand somewhat.

[chief444]

I don't think you can fold the turn as it is very possible CO is on two pair in which case folding with this large of a pot would be a mistake. I also can't see folding the river with such a large pot. But I could see check/calling both the turn and river as it appears unlikely that you are ahead of CO and also appears that you won't be able to fold out the other remaining opponent.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
well i would bet the turn and river if there was no raise.. if someone pushes back thats a different story..

[/ QUOTE ]
When you are bet into on the flop, the bettor is saying 'I have an A'. When you raise the flop, then bet the turn and the bettor calls, do you think your hand is best 50% of the time when you are called on the river?

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
In response to your other post which I just read: Why did you just quote my first two sentences without the qualifier that as UTG+1 is shortstacked it is not as bad to cold-call, and then tell me that as UTG+1 is shortstacked, cold-calling is ok? Yeah, I think 3-betting is better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops... Short attention span Wednesdays. Sorry. I think my boss walked into my office while I was chopping your quote.

[bdk3clash]

I don't like your preflop cold-call. KQo might be ahead of the range of hands UTG+1 raises with when shortstacked, and it doesn't like company. If you're going to play it (you didn't provide a read, and I would tend to muck to a non-whacky player's raise), I think you have to 3-bet.

[kgrad5]

thanks for all the comments, i definately misplayed this hand, probably should have folded pf and the turn rais should have clued me in, but alas it didnt. showdown came and he flipped over 45 suited and i lost big time, good call whoever called that (cant remember off the top of my head) and hopefully ill play this better in the future