Bonds

[Clarkmeister]

His OBP is freaking .628! Next closest is .464. Yikes.

[NoChance]

He has already broke the season record for intentional walks this year....just a couple days before the all-star break. I think it was 73 or something near that.

[ThaSaltCracka]

why don't they pitch to him.... its not like he won the HR derby.... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
His OBP is freaking .628! Next closest is .464. Yikes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Impressive.

How much of his OBP is due to intentional walks?

-Zeno

[NoChance]

Just found a clip of the record:

The three intentional walks gave Bonds 71 before the All-Star break, topping his own record established in 2002 when he was walked 68 times over the entire season. Hall of Famer Willie McCovey held the record with 45 in 1969 before Bonds.

[nothumb]

Yikes indeed. I hope he sent BALCO a thank-you note.

NT

[B-Man]

It would be more impressive if he wasn't so juiced.

[NoChance]

Guilty? When was the trial?

BTW - his OBP has been higher than most his entire career.

Why the hate?

[B-Man]

[ QUOTE ]
Guilty? When was the trial?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't need a trial to see what is obvious. This has been discussed many times on this board, I am not going to get into another debate on this subject, but feel free to do a search for some of my posts on this topic.

Do you actually believe the guy is clean? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but jeez... Do you think OJ is innocent, too?

[ QUOTE ]
BTW - his OBP has been higher than most his entire career.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except for the beginning, he has always had a good OBP, but never even close to what it's been the last 3 years, let alone this year.

[ QUOTE ]
Why the hate?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no respect for cheaters.

[NoChance]

I did see the debates. I felt it was silly to participate because nobody can prove it one way or the other. Until it is proven, Bonds is not guilty.

The reason his OBP is so high the last few years is because managers have finally just given up and quit pitching to him. The rise in OBP the past few years is a direct result of that, not steroids. If they would pitch to him his OBP would drop but they fear giving up the long ball.

*Edit - It would also not be this high if there was someone else in the lineup behind him and they were forced to pitch to him more.

[J.R.]

As nuts as his OBP is, I think its even crazier that he can walk like 40% of the time and still hit almost .370 and slug almost .800. Its not like he gets many good pitches to hit, yet he does not press, doesn't miss too many hittable pitches and he does not just put the ball into play.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

I submit to you the following:
http://www.goldpanners.com/Archive/Cards/2003_Team/03-24_bonds_front%20copy.jpghttp://www.homeruncards.com/imagesrc/bondstp.jpg
http://www.snac.com/images/barry_bonds.gifhttp://www.onlineathens.com/images/071703/bonds.jpg

[B-Man]

[ QUOTE ]
I did see the debates. I felt it was silly to participate because nobody can prove it one way or the other. Until it is proven, Bonds is not guilty.


[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. He's either guilty or not. This is not a criminal trial, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and in the court of public opinion, he is certainly guilty. (In my mind, it is 99.9% that he is guilty. He's not alone, but that doesn't justify what he has done).

[ QUOTE ]
The reason his OBP is so high the last few years is because managers have finally just given up and quit pitching to him. The rise in OBP the past few years is a direct result of that, not steroids.

[/ QUOTE ]

And why have they given up pitching to him? That wouldn't have anything to do with all the home runs, which are a direct result of steroids, would it? Were you serious with this argument? I hope not.

[ThaSaltCracka]

NoChance,
You should know, B-Man requires proof for any assertion made, except when it comes to proving Bonds took steroids, then his personal opinion and layman judgement is all thats required.

[ QUOTE ]
The reason his OBP is so high the last few years is because managers have finally just given up and quit pitching to him.

[/ QUOTE ] your completley right, not to mention that he can just flat out hit anyway.

[B-Man]

Patrick,

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

By the way, good job with the photos.

[ThaSaltCracka]

where's McGwires pic?

or for that matter Clemens? I watched the all-star game last night and they showed some early pics of Clemens when he started out. He was pretty skinny then, and now, well, some call it fat, but he looks pretty damn strong to me.

[NoChance]

These pictures bring back good memories. Thank you.

You do realize that you are looking at a 20 year difference, right?

[B-Man]

[ QUOTE ]
where's McGwires pic?

or for that matter Clemens? I watched the all-star game last night and they showed some early pics of Clemens when he started out. He was pretty skinny then, and now, well, some call it fat, but he looks pretty damn strong to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you trying to say that two wrongs make a right? The fact that others have cheated doesn't make Barry innocent.

Btw, I am a long and noted Clemens-hater, but I don't think he is a cheater. I think he's had the best career of any pitcher in the modern era, and I don't see any evidence of steroids. He's certainly not comparable to Bonds in any regard--aside from a completely different body type, Clemens didn't have his career years at ages 36-, he was best in his 20s, not quite as good in his 30s (except 2 fantastic years for Toronto), and slipped a little further in his 40s. Check the numbers.

McGwire probably took steroids, but that is irrelevant.

[NoChance]

One more thing.

Lets assume for one second that you are correct and Bonds is/has taken steroids (it may be true but again who knows). Under this assumption, we would have to assume the following:

1. Nobody else in the league is on steroids because nobody else comes close to some of his statistics the last 3 years

or

2. There are others in the league that take steroids but Bonds' steroids must have been "magical" because those other people taking steroids certainly don't come close statisticly.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
where's McGwires pic?

[/ QUOTE ]
He's the same, although he was one of the Bash Brothers long before he bulked up.

[Boris]

Oh please. These pictures are absolutely not evidence of steroid use. Bonds developed more muscle mass as he got older but it certainly wasn't outside the realm of what is possible naturally. Remember the knock on Bonds before the steroids flap was that he was (among other things) a lazy jerk who never lived up to his potential.

The most harmful evidence against Bonds is his extremely close ties to BALCO. This is very troubling. But to implicate Bonds simply because he started pumping iron and got bigger is wrong.

[B-Man]

[ QUOTE ]
Lets assume for one second that you are correct and Bonds is/has taken steroids (it may be true but again who knows). Under this assumption, we would have to assume the following:

1. Nobody else in the league is on steroids because nobody else comes close to some of his statistics the last 3 years

or

2. There are others in the league that take steroids but Bonds' steroids must have been "magical" because those other people taking steroids certainly don't come close statisticly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Completely ridiculous. Ever take a course in logic? It doesn't look that way. Neither of those statements must be true if you assume Bonds is on steroids. Think about it.

Again, I don't want to rehash the whole debate, but Bonds was the best player in baseball for most of the 90s, before the time when I believe he started hitting the juice. Since then, his numbers exploded. You don't think steroids would help the best player in baseball become the best player by far?

Here's another example--what if the fastest man in the world starts taking steroids. You don't think he would be even faster? That he would beat his competition by even more than he did before he started cheating?

[B-Man]

[ QUOTE ]
But to implicate Bonds simply because he started pumping iron and got bigger is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think anyone is relying just on that. I certainly am not. You have to look at the totality of the circumstances (including the sudden dramatic improvement at a late age).

[NoChance]

This is why I did not participate in the other threads. I am sorry for getting involved in this one too. You are entitled to your opinion and I am to mine. Just as I can't prove anything to you, you cannot prove anything to me. Let's leave it at that.

I am going to enjoy watching one of the best baseball players ever to play. You can choose to ignore that too.

[offTopic]

[ QUOTE ]
His OBP is freaking .628! Next closest is .464. Yikes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Batting average = .365 (69/189)

If, instead, he's 0/189, his OBP is still (approximately, I can't readily find HBP numbers) .409, putting him in solo 7th in the NL.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
The most harmful evidence against Bonds is his extremely close ties to BALCO.

[/ QUOTE ] This is the only thing that raises suspicion, IMO. There are plenty of ways for people to gain muscle mass without using steroids, all of which Bonds could have done.

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The most harmful evidence against Bonds is his extremely close ties to BALCO.

[/ QUOTE ] This is the only thing that raises suspicion, IMO. There are plenty of ways for people to gain muscle mass without using steroids, all of which Bonds could have done.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly...you combine the fact that he has close ties to an organization that was caught with steriods and the fact that hes gained incredible muscle mass and you get your answer.