"Buying the button" when missing the BB- still used in Cali?

[Lottery Larry]

I posted this on RGP

"Why do cardrooms prevent you from posting as an extra blind in between the button and SB? Or on the button?

I miss the BB. Player A to my left is the new SB, player B two to my left is the BB on the next hand. Player C, to my right, is the button. What is wrong with me coming in after the SB position and posting my 1 1/2 blind bet?
Why is this different than if I wait two hands and have to post extra blinds from a BETTER position- the cutoff?

Alternate example- why can't you post on the button with the 1 1/2 blind bet? Why are you required to skip the button and wait a hand?"

In response, a poster named Gary pointed me to a 2002 thread where a California casino- the Commerce, IIRC- was starting a practice of allowing the player who missed the BB to "buy the button".
In short they posted their missed blind in their normal SB position- the SB amount was dead, just as it is normally- and there were NO other blinds. The button movement remained the same that way.
The next hand, the poster would get his normal button and the normal SB and BB would be posted by the players who would have had to post it anyway.
I thought that was neat. Does it convey an undue advantage to the player who missed the BB? What if it isn't abused?
I thought it would be strange for the other players- they post a BB, then are UTG, then post a SB... or are UTG, then UTG+1, then post a BB- but the idea was to keep players in the game?

Does any casino in Cali still do this? Anyone know how the experiment worked?

Thanks
LL

[The Armchair]

I was in a casino here in the East and they did it. Given that I've only played at 3, and one (Bally's AC) was very recently, it was either the Taj or Foxwoods, and probably the latter. In any event, I was totally confused when the dealer offered another player the right to "buy the button," so thank you for the explanation.

While I can't answer your question, I can say that it is used somewhere -- or was, as recently as January.

In any event, it's very abusable. Imagine a situation -- which this provides -- in which you:
a) auto-mucked in seats 1 and 2 (10 being the button), without posting any blinds; and
b) played seats 3-9 as normal, including 1 and 2 being blinds; and
c) posted on the button; and
d) paid $1/orbit to do so (at 3/6), but could win that buck back by taking the hand.

It'd be a no-brainer.

[andyfox]

You can indeed buy the button at Commerce.

[Lottery Larry]

I think they had some procedure to pick up someone from the game if they abused it- maybe Andy can answer?

[Lottery Larry]

what do you think of it? Does it get abused a lot?

Is it better or worse than the "standard" of post after the button?

[haakee]

Buying the button is also allowed in Lucky Chances and Artichoke Joe's outside of San Francisco, but not at the San Jose clubs.

[andyfox]

No, it doesn't get abused because the players don't see it as advantageous. Posting their regular blinds, in a full game, they get 9 hands per round. Buying the button, they only get 8. Players who have been in the game will buy the button when they have missed their blind. New players will generally either take their regular blinds or wait for the button to pass and post.

With the new collection system in the top section (raking the pots instead of a time collection) there's a lot more walking, so allowing a returning player to buy the button gets him back into play quicker.

[JSD]

You can also buy the button at Harveys in Stateline, NV (South Lake Tahoe). Rumour has it that this is where the concept was born.

[John Deere]

I don't see how this can be abused. If you buy the button, you're still paying the BB+SB to see one orbit of cards (although you're only seeing, at most, 9 hands instead of 10).

Playing 4/8, I usually don't buy the button -- $2 for two more hands, one of them in the worst position, doesn't particularly seem worth it. Playing 3/6, I usually will -- $1 for two hands I can deal with. How petty of me.

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]
Does any casino in Cali still do this? Anyone know how the experiment worked?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about Cali, but you can do this at Bellagio and Mirage. It usually causes confusion for those expecting to pay their blinds.

We started allowing it in my weekly game, and it's always confusing for someone.

Regards,

T

[Lottery Larry]

Another question- you put up a live BB and post a dead SB as well to "buy the button"- is that more or less an advantage that reversing it? Post your usual SB, put a dead BB in the pot.

Buy the button- you have BB in with dead 1/2 BB in the pot
Reverse it- you have SB in with dead 1 BB in the pot.

That way, you don't get to see the flop for "free" but does the extra pot money reward you unduly for missing your BB hand?

BtB- if someone calls, you have 1 1/2 of the big blind in there, or 1.5:1 for "free". If someone raises, you can call one big blind to get 3 1/2 big blinds- your BB, the dead SB, and the double BB raise- or 3.5:1

Reverse BtB- if someone calls, you can call 1/2 the big blind against the 2 1/2 BB in the pot- your posted 1/2 BB, the dead BB and the call- in there, or 5:1.
If someone raises, you must call 1 1/2 big blind to get 3 1/2 big blinds- your BB, the dead SB, and the double BB raise- or 2.33:1

Would the "reverse" method encourage more people to make a play, since you can't limp in for "free" and they wouldn't want you to limp for 5:1? Or doesn't it really make any significant difference?

In either buy the button scenario, another limper gets 1.5:1 immediate odds, but in BtB they know YOU can limp for free. In the reverse method, they can expect a chance to take down the 1.5:1 if the poster folds, and get 2:1 if he limps.
If someone raises instead, they have 1:1.5 (less than even odds) in either scenario immediately. If the poster calls, however, the BtB method gets them 1.25:1 while the reverse gets 1.5:1 (raise to 2 BB against a pot of 1 1/2 BB in posted blinds, another 1 1/2 BB call)


In the "normal" wait for the button to pass method, you post 1 BB and there is 2 BB in the pot (your dead SB, the regular SB and BB) so calling a raise cost you 1 BB to get 4 BB or 4:1.
Anyone else who calls, other than the blinds, gets 2:1 on their call and 3:2 on their raise (and more likely 2.25:1 or 2.75:1)

It seems as if the reverse buy-in would generate more action but give the poster a bit more of an advantage?

[Rick Nebiolo]

BTB is used at the Bike and most other LA Casinos. It's a great rule and the spread of it in Southern California was in part inspired by this (http://tinyurl.com/3za2v) Tommy Angelo article.

Regards,

Rick