Hear the fish, see the fish, BE the fish [Archive]

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ddubois

07-14-2004, 06:01 AM

In an old post I raised an AK preflop, missed, someone min-raised into me, and I tried futilely to raise the size of the pot to push them off. Tosh recommended to me, roughly: "Don't bother trying to bluff these min-raises idiots, they have hit something and will call". So I took that knowledge and applied it in an unorthidox way.

In this hand, I figure the odds of me getting anyone with a king to lay down this flop are about 0%. Bad kings would not have called pre-flop if they weren't horrible calling stations. But with a gutshot, a backdoor, and an overcard (albeit tainted), I really want to see another card. The problem is, if someone bets the pot, I have to fold, and if I check, someone in late position will surely bet. By pre-emptively min-betting into this pot, I suspected there was a chance at freezing up anyone who might have bet larger. Insanity, genius, or somewhere in between? Tell me what you think:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t800)
CO (t800)
Button (t800)
SB (t800)
BB (t800)
Hero (t800)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero raises to t50, UTG+1 calls t50, 2 folds, MP2 calls t50, MP3 calls t50, 2 folds, SB calls t40, 1 fold,

Flop: (t265) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t15, UTG+1 raises to t30, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, SB calls t30, Hero calls t15.

Turn: (t355) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t15, UTG+1 calls t15, SB calls t15.

River: (t400) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks.

Final Pot: t400
Main Pot: t400 (t400), between UTG+1, SB and Hero. > Pot won by SB (t400).

Results in white below: 
SB shows Ks 9c (two pair, kings and nines).
Hero shows Qc Ac (high card, ace).
UTG+1 shows Ad Jd (high card, ace).
Outcome: SB wins t400. 

In a sense, my plan worked. I got cards as cheaply as I could have hoped for. I didn't hit, but that's wholly immaterial, isn't it?

kenewbie

07-14-2004, 07:53 AM

I like it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

k

mackthefork

07-14-2004, 08:04 AM

This works so often, and i have no idea why!

I can remember being called for 35 by a guy with a flopped set and making a flush on the turn, man was he upset, 4 letter fury ensued, when he raised on the river and i took it down. I think they believe they are being clever.

Regards ML

DarrenX

07-14-2004, 04:42 PM

"This works so often, and i have no idea why!"

You get a passive family-style table and it's a must on long shot draws like gut-shots and middle pairs.

poboys

07-14-2004, 05:07 PM

In my experience, this technique works very well. Most low buy-in players don't have an idea of pot odds or what to bet. So taking the lead, definately puts most players on the defensive (esp if they have a not-so-great-kicker).

Just keep that in mind when someone min bets you!

Sam T.

07-14-2004, 05:09 PM

I like it as well, and can't wait to try it at home. It reminds me of the limit play of raising the flop from the button in order to get a free card for your draw.

ddubois

07-14-2004, 05:23 PM

Yeah, I was going to say something about the free card play.

I'm surprised this has got such positive responses. I thought I was likely being too clever for my own good and someone was going to flame me. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Would anyone have semi-bluffed the turn? Pointless, right? Can't semi-bluff bad calling stations.

Would anyone have raised more pre-flop?

stupidsucker

07-14-2004, 05:23 PM

I do it all the time.

A tiny bet says a alot. Someone that has a good hand might try to trap you, not knowing you have a great draw. Or they might think you are trying to trap them so they dont go over the top. If someone comes over the top just fold and you wasted almost nothing to see cards for cheap cheap cheap.

RoyalSampler

07-14-2004, 07:04 PM

So the consensus is min raise is bad, but min bet is a valid tool? It's poor strategy against a real player right? But is the idea that it works well against certain weak opponents?

Thanks

kurtcobain

07-14-2004, 08:21 PM

The play doesn't really work at higher limits ($100+ sngs or $2/4 + NL). I raise pot about 75% of the time someone min bets into a raised or big pot. They generally fold, and if they call, I bet pot on the turn when a blank falls.

However, against good players who realize the clownery of the min bet into a big pot, try min betting with a monster.

UncleDuke

07-14-2004, 08:25 PM

I see people do this a lot when I raise preflop. After the flop, they min bet into me. I think it's often a probing bet when they think the flop missed me and want to sniff out whether I have a big pair or just high cards. Often a modest raise (representing the big pair) of their min bet will take it down.

Dominic

07-14-2004, 08:38 PM

it's why I rarely slow play online...I WILL check raise a lot online...more than in a B&M...for some reason, it seems to get people online off their hands more often...

another strategy I use fairly successfully in online SNGs is when I see and miss a flop - I'll check, wait for the inevitable mini-bet from the player with position, then make a pot-sized raise (only when I have outs, of course). I swear, three times out of three, they fold. It works more in the middle stages then at the beginning or end.

ddubois

07-14-2004, 08:45 PM

Heh, this is exactly the opposite of the advice I got in this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=818478&page=6&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#818478).

Also, min-beting into the pre-flop raiser is completely different what what was going on here. Here the pre-flop raiser was min-betting out of position to buy cheap cards.

UncleDuke

07-15-2004, 06:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Heh, this is exactly the opposite of the advice I got in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that wasn't necessarily advice from me, just something I've tried. I'll yield to the more experienced players on it. I do worry that just calling the little bet is giving them the cheap card that they want, but it may well be worth it to avoid giving away extra chips the times they do have something.