$60k in 60 days -- Days 58 & 59 [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Schneids

07-14-2004, 05:29 AM

Day Fifty Eight (July 12) and Day Fifty Nine (July 13) -- 07.14.04, 03:22

I think in life one way to categorize people is into conforming traditionalists, and independent free-thinkers. My mom would likely fit into the first category -- and I would likely fall into the second. I find it funny that as my poker playing has progressively decreased as the summer has gone by, that every few days due to her I manage to feel unwavering discomfort about the fact that while most people go to work and have daily commitments with a job, I do not. My outlook is the fact I do not have this burden should be a good thing. I view it as a burden. She thinks working and reporting for duties daily is to be expected and builds character. I think understanding this difference in philosophy helps me to continue to do what I think is right for myself and lifestyle.

I talk with one of my friends and business partners for my web-development company. He says, "I have a meeting tomorrow, Thursday, and Saturday, all business clients. I have Elite sending the latest $120 hosting check. I have a meeting with Steve. I have a proposal being made up for a new Tom's Ribs maintenance project. I've got homework, I've got thesis, I've got programs, I've got all sorts of [censored] [to do these next few days]." He's not alone. Most of my close friends are working 40-50 hours a week. Some at two jobs. I notice their schedule taking effect on them when they frequently want to call it a night at 10:30, if they're even up for going out at all. This friend then says to me in jest, "Yeah, enjoy your new car and poker, f*cker."

The simple fact is, I know how lucky and well I have it this summer. When I was young, I would watch Kirby Puckett and Kent Hrbek and the Twins, and I'd fantasize about being a professional baseball player. The little neighbor boy that you see outside throwing up a baseball to himself and then hitting it, then running around a miniature base path and randomly sliding: yeah, that was me at four years old. Playing a game as a job is often the fantasy of many young kids. This summer, it has been my reality. I feel blessed to be able to live it.

Back to poker or else I'll have nothing left for a conclusion journal

Although this is definitely a function of lack of playing time, until the past two days I cannot remember the last time I've had four straight winning sessions! In Day 58 I played for an hour very late at night and won $204.50, and then today in Day 59 I played 1.5 hours in the afternoon and won $466.50, another 15 minutes in the evening and won $210, and then another hour at night and won $421 more!

Moreover, although I've yet to discuss it, twice this past week I've made it out to Canterbury for some live poker to be played independently of this quest. Both times I went with friends, and both times I played 4/8. The highlight of the first trip was going the last 2.5 hours of a 4 hour session without winning a pot and being zero for two in making what I thought were slim river value bets (both times called by better hands). In one, I turned a nut flush on a paired board and then the river brought two pair and I bet anyway and was called in two spots (one spot by the low-end of the boat). In the other, I bet with ace high on a two paired board and was called by a higher two pair. The second trip's highlight was donating to my friend I went with -- he raised PF UTG with AJ and there were two cold callers plus me defending from the BB. The AA2 flop got checked around, an 8 came on the turn and I check raised him, he three bet me, I four-bet and he called, and the river brought a jack and I bet, he raised, I said to him "oh no AJ right?" as I threw in 8 chips in a spot I know would have been bad ass to fold my 88 face up since I have played enough hands against him to know with 99.9% certainty he has AJ when he raises me on the river (especially when on the turn he knows I'm capable of check raising him lightly (hence his 3-bet) but will never four bet him without a hand that beats AJ). As can probably be inferred, I've been a big time donator in Canterbury’s 4/8 game the past couple of days.

Sometimes I do not know what inspires me to play a hand the way I play it: As usual, the game is Party 10/20 6-max, UTG and UTG+1 limp, CO (poster) checks, button raises, SB calls, in the BB I 3-bet with JcJh; UTG calls and the other two fold, button caps, SB calls and I call. Tc9h6d flop; SB checks, I bet, UTG calls, button raises, SB folds, I call, UTG calls. Turn 4h; I check, check, button bets, I call, UTG calls. River Qh; I bet, UTG calls, button folds; UTG has 9s8c and my hand is good.

Here is what I can infer I was thinking during the hand: preflop – alright, he capped, his hand must be pretty good. Flop – sweet I have an overpair still, I bet. Great, he raises. Well lets see, I can 3-bet here but that does nothing but bloat the pot and he may cap or he may smooth call and raise on the turn, and sometimes he'll do that with a worse hand but most of the time he does it with a dominating hand… So, I think I'll call and see what develops. Turn – ok I think that's a blank, I don't want to get raised again so I'll check and call. River – AK missed and that's the third heart and it is a scary enough river card to many hands he could be holding or overplaying. If I have the best hand I don't want to see the river get checked around because that card is somewhat scary. I think I'll bet and see what happens since there are a lot of hands that'll call my bet but may not bet, themselves.

Also today, I posted three other hands in the HU/SH forum that all produced plenty of solid discussion and even includes NateThaLag calling ME a LAG dozens of times! To quickly summarize each of them, one (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=headsup&Number=826938&page =0&view=expanded&sb=5&o=14&fpart=all) involves raising PF with 88, having a cold call behind me, having a blind 3-bet me, and then me raising the blind’s flop bet on an ATx board; another (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=827172&page=0&view=expand ed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1#827172) involves my play with 33 on a JJ8 flop in a multiway pot plus shortstacked aggressor; and the
last (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=headsup&Number=827702&page =0&view=expanded&sb=5&o=14&fpart=all) involves whether my flop cold call with a gutshot, overcard, and runner nut flush draw was mathematically correct. I know I've learned at least one thing in each of the posts, and each of the hands is worthy of discussion in this journal if not for the fact today's journal is already long enough... Hence, I included the links.

Total for Day 58: $204.50
Total for Day 59: $1097.50
Goal to date after 59 days: $31,946.08/$60,000

chezlaw

07-14-2004, 09:15 AM

I've really appreciated these posts. For someone of my standard, who considers going pro from time to time, to see how much someone better can make and yet see how tough it can be at times, has been brilliant.

[ QUOTE ]
I think in life one way to categorize people is into conforming traditionalists, and independent free-thinkers. My mom would likely fit into the first category -- and I would likely fall into the second

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I remember you confessing to using an alarm clock. Independent free thinker pah! /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

ThePopinjay

07-14-2004, 09:21 AM

Okay Schneids. You know what this means: $30K in 1 day. I know you can do it. I believe in you.

Baulucky

07-14-2004, 10:57 AM

Nice job. Never underestimate the will necessary to put in the hours. It's the hardest thing for some of us. Now, I have proof that I'm not alone.

LikesToLose

07-14-2004, 11:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
She thinks working and reporting for duties daily is to be expected and builds character.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have stated many times in this quest that you do not have the discipline to sit down and play when it feels like work. This is the point that your mother understands and you do not.

There is much I could tell you on this topic, but it likely would not really be understood. You will not believe the value of 'conformity' it until you experience it. Just consider this: You would have met your $60K goal if you had the work ethic and felt a responsibility to achieve them. Can you really look in the mirror and say, even though I didn't meet my goal, I did the very best I could and I'm proud of my accomplishments?

Don't get me wrong I think $30K is great. I think cutting your own path is great. Blindly conforming is not the path to excel. But you can do better and I think you know it. So why didn't you? What did your busy friends learn this summer that you didn't?

Just something to think about

chezlaw

07-14-2004, 12:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There is much I could tell you on this topic, but it likely would not really be understood. You will not believe the value of 'conformity' it until you experience it. Just consider this: You would have met your $60K goal if you had the work ethic and felt a responsibility to achieve them. Can you really look in the mirror and say, even though I didn't meet my goal, I did the very best I could and I'm proud of my accomplishments?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe the difference is realising that having enough and enjoying life is better then achieving as much as possible and missing it.

lostinthought

07-14-2004, 01:11 PM

Nice run Schneids, and thanks for sharing your experience with all of us here.

I think you settled for a 30k win in the last 1/5 or 1/4 of the project. Of course most people at that point would have been happy to call it quits as well.

You seem to play a very good game, but I would be careful not to be results oriented. Why are hours hard to put in if you are thinking about them the right way?

Good luck in the future with school and everything else.

Schneids

07-15-2004, 05:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
She thinks working and reporting for duties daily is to be expected and builds character.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have stated many times in this quest that you do not have the discipline to sit down and play when it feels like work. This is the point that your mother understands and you do not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the burn out I've experienced is as much a result of trying to play a game for 4-8 hours a day, 60 straight days, without days off. A game that when playing 4+ tables at once, can become mentally fatiguing after you reach a certain point. If you've traveled this route and are saying my decreasing playing time is a result of lack of discipline then fine, I'll listen. If you haven't played multitables daily for hours at a time, then I'd like to hear what you have to say after doing so for a month or two. I think the fact that I've kept the commitment of writing journals even after the point it was clear this goal was heading the route of a failure, is a better measuring stick of my level of diligence.

[ QUOTE ]
There is much I could tell you on this topic, but it likely would not really be understood. You will not believe the value of 'conformity' it until you experience it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm all ears. FWIW, I adhere to many societal norms that I do not wish to, yet continue to because of present conditions in my life with the people around me. For instance, there are some days when my "job", poker, keeps me awake until 8am. I so desperately would like to still get 8 hours of sleep, yet, I set the alarm to get up at a more "normal" time (normal in the sense of a young adult sleep schedule) to keep my mom from getting upset if I slept until 4pm. I understand there are balances we have to keep whether we wish to or not, and in my view this is no different than conforming to pre-determined guidelines.

[ QUOTE ]
Just consider this: You would have met your $60K goal if you had the work ethic and felt a responsibility to achieve them. Can you really look in the mirror and say, even though I didn't meet my goal, I did the very best I could and I'm proud of my accomplishments?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I would have, maybe I wouldn't. I can look in the mirror and say "Mike you've done a great job at trying to achieve your goal, while continuing to keep others and yourself happy about life." You're right. I could have denied my friends every night they called about doing something, and told them "no see I have this goal and even though right now I'm 20% (or 30% or 50%) behind pace I'm going to shut you out of my life entirely to continue to stringently pursue this thing that looks like a bleak possiblity unless I make it my one and only priority." I do believe that I had a work ethic that was very solid up until the point one could begin to conclude I was going to fall short of $60,000. If you see that different than me that is your choice, but I've lived my life.

[ QUOTE ]
Don't get me wrong I think $30K is great. I think cutting your own path is great. Blindly conforming is not the path to excel. But you can do better and I think you know it. So why didn't you? What did your busy friends learn this summer that you didn't?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a better question is what did I learn this summer that they didn't? I think I could have done better with poker this summer, but at what price in other aspects of my life?

[ QUOTE ]
Just something to think about

[/ QUOTE ]

I know my tone sounds a little angry and defensive, but I just want to add that I really enjoyed responding to your post and I thought you made many valid, thought-provoking points. Good discussion.

Kjell201

07-15-2004, 06:07 AM

So I'm guessing your gonna put the 30K on, say black?, at the roulette table tomorrow? Your goal was 60k so you must aim for it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

LikesToLose

07-15-2004, 12:48 PM

Mike:

I don't know you except from the journal that you have put out, so I'm not in any way trying to judge you. I'm only trying to bring up those interesting points for you to consider and see if and how they apply to you.

What made me respond is the that you stated that you are a free thinker in a household of conformists that are pressuring you to conform and be more like them. Leading to you thinking you are above or different from them and there advice is not applicable. I'm making some inferences here, so if I'm wrong, don't be offended. I can tell you that the values of dedication and sacrifice and hard work will pay off, regardless of the path you choose.

Regardless of how you define success, it will take these character traits your mother is espousing to reach it. Successful marriages, children, jobs, businesses, art, writing, poker, charity, anything. If you really want to do well at anything it will take effort and sacrifice. And often times it will suck.

In your poker quest, you made choices of enjoying yourself instead of blindly pursuing the goal. Only you can decide whether the initial goal was too aggressive or if you got lazy in the middle. I would think that it is ok if you said I will play 4-5 hours a day and have a goal of $1k/day, then realized it would take 8 hours or more. In that case the goal was too aggressive. But you have stated things to the effect that you logged in, got on 4 tables, then said f-it and shut down. From that I gathered a lack of dedication might have been a factor.

There will come times in your life when the choice isn't so easy. This is probably where my point is mostly based. The decision between and extra $30k this summer or having a good time with your buddies is fairly easy. With $30k in the 'bank', I don't blame you bit for f-ing off and enjoying yourself before school starts again.

Life will give you choices later, and usually the one with harder work will pay high dividends. The scary ones pay off too. Owning a business is more work and much scarier. You will also probably not make much money and have to make sacrifices. If you decide in the middle that the goal was too aggressive, it will cost you much more. Then you may have to suck it up and work 20 hours a day and try to function with only 4 hours sleep, or you have to sell the house and might not be able to send your kids to college.

There will also be decisions everyday that are no where near as drastic and don't have nearly the same payoff. Working more than 40 hours a week for you first real job. You don't get paid for it and you have to give up a lot of fun for it. This is when the 'conformist' values your mother talking about come in. Your buddies that are soooo busy with their work will get much further ahead. If you are competing with them in the workplace and decide that you will only put your 40 hours that they are paying you for, you will watch them become your manager.

So, in the end:
Whatever your 'free thinking' goals are, hardwork and dedication will help you achieve them. The character building that your mother talks is very important. You learned a lot this summer. Adults are not always right. There are better ways to success. But you missed learning to suck it up and bust you ass when there are a hundred other things you would rather do. I guess that is my only real point. Realize what your mother is saying has some merit.

I'm not going to edit this so it probably rambles way too much. If this offends you, sorry.

Mark

PS: I did re-read it. I understand why people call me cocky and pompous. /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

JoeC

07-15-2004, 02:37 PM

I agree with your points about poker vs. working. My only source of income this summer is poker as well... truth is, next summer I'm probably working either an internship or construction job, either way about 60 hours a week. So it's pretty relaxing to just take a summer easy and play poker, I think this builds as much character as any 9-to-5 job would.

Patrick del Poker Grande

07-15-2004, 03:05 PM

You might have to put it all on red.

I don't post in your thread, but I just wanted to say that even though you've come up short of your $60k goal, I think you've done quite well for yourself. Thanks for sharing this with us.

Blarg

07-15-2004, 05:22 PM

Likestolose --

That was one of the best and most on-point posts I've read on this board.

Blarg

07-15-2004, 05:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe the difference is realising that having enough and enjoying life is better then achieving as much as possible and missing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're making things a little too cosmic.

We don't really know what he's realize and what he hasn't, though you put a very nice slant on things. We do know that Schneids self-selected and set a precise goal for himself; nobody forced him into it. Therefore, not achieving that self-selected goal is hardly a triumph of enlightenment.

Nor is it the end of the world; but you've got to grind a lens that's more like a funhouse mirror if you want to make falling far short of your goal and often seeming not even to be trying much look like becoming an even bigger winner than you had started out hoping to be in the first place.

dogmeat

07-15-2004, 06:16 PM

There is a learning curve to life. Reading your posts has been a lot of fun and I have enjoyed them. Setting a goal and doing your best to achieve it is never wrong, but asking what you were supposed to do about your friend's while trying to achieve your goal makes me see your mom's point. Did you ever consider playing 4-8 hours between the hours of 8am and 5pm? You managed to win $30,000, which is probably more than most of the people responding to your posts have made in the last 60 days (myself included), so take their comments, and mine, with a grain of salt (and an eye for jealousy).

Zimba said: "A fool learns from no one, but a wise man can learn from a fool".

Even the posts you dismiss have value, read them carefully.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Blarg

07-15-2004, 06:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the burn out I've experienced is as much a result of trying to play a game for 4-8 hours a day, 60 straight days

[/ QUOTE ]

Bro, four to eight hours a day is NOT a long day.

And you seemed to take plenty of time off, in all kinds of ways.

Some days you didn't play, and most you didn't play for all that many hours. When you did play, you often didn't play the game you knew you could have the best chance of winning at, at a rate that would help you accomplish the goal of your mission. Maybe you were blowing off steam, or learning other things and accomplishing other goals, but you were abandoning your primary goal when you started playing tournaments, moving to 15/30, etc. It seems fair to say you had a way where it seemed pretty apparent that you could meet your goal or at least come very close, yet you surprisingly sometimes seemed to want to do anything and play anything BUT the game you knew gave you your best chance of success in achieving your posted goal. That was very unwise and seemed to show a real lack of discipline and commitment.

[ QUOTE ]
I've kept the commitment of writing journals even after the point it was clear this goal was heading the route of a failure, is a better measuring stick of my level of diligence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your goal wasn't to write journals on and off that covered a 60-day period.

He's right -- you didn't understand your mother and you don't understand him. (Sounds like a smart mom by the way.) Or at least, it's not something easy to talk about or admit on an internet forum; it's fair enough to grant you that.

As to your sleep schedule -- you are the one who messes it up, so you can hardly complain about the results. And people with real jobs have to wake up early whether they're tired or not at least five days a week, not just once in a while. For most of the world, waking up when you're still tired is enough the norm that it's hardly worth commenting on.

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I would have, maybe I wouldn't. I can look in the mirror and say "Mike you've done a great job at trying to achieve your goal, while continuing to keep others and yourself happy about life." You're right. I could have denied my friends every night they called about doing something, and told them "no see I have this goal and even though right now I'm 20% (or 30% or 50%) behind pace I'm going to shut you out of my life entirely to continue to stringently pursue this thing that looks like a bleak possiblity unless I make it my one and only priority." I do believe that I had a work ethic that was very solid up until the point one could begin to conclude I was going to fall short of $60,000. If you see that different than me that is your choice, but I've lived my life.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're the one that made the goal, no one else. It's highly likely you could have reached it if you hadn't missed so many hours and/or if you had just played the games you knew were most likely to make you money and then screwed around and wasted time on other poker adventures AFTER you had reached your goal.

Nothing wrong with enjoying your summer and hanging with your friends, but most adults would hardly consider that accomplishing significant life goals. Which is all fine, unless you've set significant life goals that do indeed clash with just hanging and enjoying life. Which you DID.

[ QUOTE ]
But you missed learning to suck it up and bust you ass when there are a hundred other things you would rather do. I guess that is my only real point. Realize what your mother is saying has some merit.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is some truly excellent advice and you're lucky you got it. I'm all for cheerleading you too, and I admire your success in hold'em, but Likestolose is dead on.

A lot of people crash in college or somewhere along the line when they find out that they finally have to work for the first time. They were smart enough to ace high school or excel in their first jobs easily, and without much effort they could distinguish themselves from their peers. Then sooner or later they wind up in the real world, where things get harder and there are others really competing with them. It's great to be valedictorian until you go to a tough college and find out almost ALL your classmates were valedictorians. Uh oh! There are a surprising number of capable people who simply crash out of the system at this point.

Same with martial arts or sports. A lot of people seem to be tremendously good at lots of sports, easily beating everyone. But when they move up a level of competition or it starts to get hard, they quit. All that natural ability, wasted, and they have to watch from the sidelines as people inherently worse than they are zoom on past and leave them in the dust.

You could be putting yourself in that position in your hold'em game.

It's amazing how much talent and natural ability and intelligence often wind up meaning so little in life compared to the ability to just sit down and work. Like that saying goes -- genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration. Or Woody Allen's version -- "90% of success is just showing up."

You know what employers often like even more than ability? And what they REALLY like about college degrees? Stick-to-it-iveness, I could call it. A college degree doesn't show you're that smart, but it does show you can do something that undoubtedly gets unpleasant and dull, sometimes exhausting, and takes lots of work for years on end if you have to, in order to MEET YOUR GOAL.

That's precisely what you're going to do in your working life. And that's almost entirely the complete worth of a college degree for most people by far. And that is no small thing at all, it's a huge thing.

That's why Likestolose pointed out your casually dismissing your achievement of your goal, and often barely seeming to try along the way, as something of great importance. Neither he nor your mother is saying something of small import -- major import is more like it.

Life is all ABOUT conforming, and you're going to have to do it one way or the other. The thing is, you don't always have to conform to the goals of others. But if you don't even conform to your own goals, you're really sunk.

60k in 60 days was YOUR OWN GOAL. There's nothing phoney or trivial about it, or at least there shouldn't have been to you, or you never should have made the goal in the first place. Changing horses midstream by going back on your own goal in the middle doesn't necessarily show wisdom, though it can. However, that (supposed) wisdom does absolutely nothing to help you achieve the goal that you yourself set. There's a time for wisdom and a time to sit your arse down and get cracking. You made a commitment. Breaking it is like telling a lie to yourself.

The money wasn't important. But not sitting down and proving that you could achieve a goal (or half kill yourself trying, if necessary) was, no matter what the goal itself was.

And this was only a two-month goal! Jeez, how short does a goal have to be? And likely a very doable one for you.

Your abandoning it was almost perverse, as you were sinking your own ship. What happens when you have a longer-term goal, like making a marriage work? Are you just going to give up as soon as you get bored or aggravated or interested in other things? What happens when you choose a career or start a business?

You won't be conforming to other people's expectations if you do any of those things; if you do, that will just be incidental. The important thing is you will be working at your own goals.

You've already proven you can succeed when you set your mind to it and you're in the mood for it and feel you have the energy. Unfortunately, most of life is not about that; it's about producing consistently whether you're in the mood or not. If you can't even meet your own goals consistently, or just use a redefinition of them when you get bored or frustrated as an excuse, it doesn't matter how smart or talented you are -- you'll fail at everything. Or else maybe just try nothing.

I loved your posts, but I hope missing your goal taught you or made you think about a heck of a lot more than how much you like hanging out with friends and enjoying your summer. I mean -- welcome to the club already on that one!

Maybe your next goal, and most or all of your next goals, should be one you intend to accomplish come hell or high water. Even if you have to make more sacrifices than you'd like or take advantage of fewer interesting opportunities along the way to get there. That way, succeeding will be great and failing it won't be a matter of trying to find some way to look at things from a different angle that makes things seem better or other than what they are -- you'll know you were responsible and gave 100%, and there's not a thing wrong with that.

So long, that is, as you're responsible enough not to choose goals you know you'll fail at in advance.

Ulysses

07-15-2004, 06:43 PM

I agree w/ a fair amount of what you said in your post. But I also think you're being a little too harsh on Schneids. I think this is mainly just a case of him simply believing initially that it would be really fun and easy to play 6-8 hours of focused poker every day. Somewhere along the way he realized what a huge grind that is and how grueling it can be.

A while back we had a flurry of posts around here from kids who had decided they were going pro. Every time I'd read one of those posts, I'd think to myself "Boy that's going to be a lot tougher and a lot less fun than you think." It's so easy to extrapolate from an hour or two an evening making a hundred or two hundred per hour into an easy poker-playing 40 hr workweek making hundreds of thousands per year. In practice, things are usually not going to be quite as rosy.

Unlike a lot of those kids, if Schneids finds himself at a point where he needs/wants to make a decision between playing poker for a living or doing something else, he'll be much better prepared than most to make the right decision for him.

Sure, he didn't meet his goals. But I think he got a great education in what it would be like for him to play poker for a living. And made a nice chunk of money in the process.

Baulucky

07-15-2004, 07:12 PM

Agree. Playing 40 hr/week of poker for a year is not a trivial matter, especially multi-tabling.

GuyOnTilt

07-15-2004, 07:21 PM

Bro, four to eight hours a day is NOT a long day.

You've obviously never tried playing poker 6 hours/day for two months straight. As Schneids has found out, it's quite taxing playing poker online full-time for any extended period of time.

GoT

Nottom

07-15-2004, 07:27 PM

I have to agree with much of what El Ulysses said. As one of the flurry that decided to do the "pro poker" thing at the beginning of the year I figured it would be pretty easy to go from a 9-5 job to playing 6-8 hours of poker a day (especially since I had been playing poker for a few hours/night and working before trying the pro thing). It turned out to be much harder than I realized to put in the hours and hours in front of a computer screen and as a result I haven't really been making as much as I probably could/should be.

On the other hand the fredom that being an online pro bring has allowed me to do a lot of things I wasn't doing before. I can go to the gym when I want, I can hang out with some friends that I was starting to drift away from because my schedule never really jived with theirs, and most importantly when my daughter was born a couple months ago I was/am able to spend as much time as I can with her and my wife.

I'm still able to earn as much as I previously was working and next spring I'll be able to go back to school and finish my degree that I was never able to because I got sucked into the work world a little too soon, but now I am about 1000x happier and more satisfied with how I'm living my life. If Schneids would rather make $30k in two months and enjoy himself, rather than put absolutely everything he has towards completing his goal and be hating life I don't really see how anybody can fault him for that.

MMMMMM

07-15-2004, 07:34 PM

6 hours of multitabling over a day, even if broken up into several sessions, feels to me like at least as much work as playing a 12 hour live session at the casino. Multitabling is just a whole lot more demanding and grueling, in a very concentrated way.

Nottom

07-15-2004, 07:36 PM

Agreed, I have a new found respect for Mr Davidross after trying to do the same.

Blarg

07-15-2004, 07:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You've obviously never tried playing poker 6 hours/day for two months straight. As Schneids has found out, it's quite taxing playing poker online full-time for any extended period of time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, you obviously have no basis for your claim, so I have no idea why you made it.

Incidentally, Schneids didn't player poker 6 hours/day for two months straight.

I played 10/20 and 15/30 stud 40 hours a week in a casino while working full time for well over a year, and I've put in long hours in the casino while working full time and going to school, too. At other times in my life I've worked 60 hours a week while going to school full time. I'm well aware of what's hard and what's not.

Your assumption is not correct.

Blarg

07-15-2004, 07:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree w/ a fair amount of what you said in your post. But I also think you're being a little too harsh on Schneids.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, my post was a little harsh. But from what I can tell from reading Schneid's posts, he seems like a pretty nice guy and a smart guy, and I very much admire a lot of what he's been able to do. There's just a certain hard reality to the thing we're talking about that it felt like Schneid was brushing off with his responses, though -- it sounded like he was sweeping under the rug what were probably the most important lessons of the whole experience. That would not only be missing out on something valuable, but actually be counter-productive.

I think his mom and Likestolose were absolutely dead on and Schneids is lucky to have people around him to tell him (and I guess on the internet to reinforce it) what they think even if it is not always cheerful stuff or easy to hear. That's being more supportive sometimes than putting a bright face on things. What they said, which echoes how I feel, might be something uncomfortable to talk about or hear, but it's the core of adulthood.

Even stuffy old conformist moms can really be on the ball sometimes.

Ulysses

07-15-2004, 08:11 PM

As an aside, I can put in a ten hour session at the casino no problem, but I start to go insane after about two hours of multi-tabling online.

Blarg

07-15-2004, 08:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If Schneids would rather make $30k in two months and enjoy himself, rather than put absolutely everything he has towards completing his goal and be hating life I don't really see how anybody can fault him for that.

[/ QUOTE ]

No fault in being human. It's probably more human overall to fail than succeed, if you could average out such things.

But unfortunately neither Schneids nor we know that he would have hated life playing more, because he didn't play more. That's where the goal part came up, fell through, and mattered.

Besides, lots of people hate their jobs or at least wish they were somewhere else doing something else, if not most of them; doing so is not necessarily the determinant of whether you should show up for work tomorrow. It's not really a very good excuse at all. And an awful lot of people work more than 4 to 8 hours a day(and find it difficult). Heck some have to drive hours a day just for the privilege of working well over 8 difficult hours a day. (Even including some poker players.)

It probably would have been of interest to him to see if he could have played more, and it's highly significant that he didn't. A potential warning sign.

He can't be either faulted or commended for being human, but in terms of the context of achieving a goal, sometimes being human is not relevant. It's not like all the rest of us are NOT human or something or the goal he set was inhumanly difficult or dangerous. It's not like he couldn't accomplish his goal because people were firing machine gun bullets at him, or like his life won't be full of other times where he has to do things he doesn't like, even if he's tired or something really fun comes up to do with his friends. He probably has experienced that already many times in school; yet when it was important to him, he probably came through very well many times.

Unfortunately, there's more than one kind of light to cast things in that seems realistic. It's quite fair to look at things in the light that says you're only human, but when you make a goal, you just have to fully look at that, too.

Skipping that part or glossing it over is counter-productive.

gibs

07-15-2004, 08:31 PM

I think most of you are unjustly being too harsh on Schneids. Why? My thought would be out of jealousy. The guy makes just over $30K in 60 days from playing a game, and then talks about how playing a game for 6-8 hours a day is hard. After hearing this some of you who replied probably thought something like, "Little punk. Guy plays a game for a living and does quite well, and then has the audacity to say that it's hard and he doesn't want to stick through it anymore. Just wait until he gets out into the real world." I'm not trying to put words into any of your mouths, I just see you as being a little jealous after your responses.

You say he has no dicipline since he slacked off in the end and didn't play as many hours, and that he needs this dicipline if he is going to succeed in a full time job later on in life. Well, there is one key difference here. With poker being his job, he has the ability to take time off when he wants. He was doing quite well over halfway through his goal, and maybe if he kept grinding it out he could have came pretty close. Here is my thinking, and Schneids can tell me if I am right or not. He's already got a lot of money in the bank. More than most people make in that amount of time. So what's more important. Grinding it out on your ass doing something that has become less enjoyable to you, or spending quality time with his friends and enjoying his summer. I think that Schneids reassessed his priorities at this point and decided that spending time with his friends and enjoying his summer (because he won't have many of these left) was more important than reaching his goal. Now does this mean he is not disciplined? Not at all. It's simply that he had the luxury of having a choice of whether he wanted to continue to work or not. Those of you that have a normal 9-5 job do not have this luxury. You have to grind it out every day whether you want to or not in order to make a living. Had Schneids not have started off real well, or really needed all the money he could get, then I'm sure he would have been diciplined to keep going. But again, he had a choice. Something those that work a normal job do not.

And for those of you that say, "You think playing 6-8 hours of poker a day is a long day, try working for 8 or more hours a day." I suggest you try playing for 6-8 hours a day, every day, for at least a month. Probably not as easy as you think. Playing poker is, without a doubt, much better than doing actual work. But I would say that playing poker for 6-8 hours a day is more taxing on your mind than working for 8 hours a day at a normal job. Now before you freak out and rush to reply to this, let me explain myself. I'm not saying that playing poker for a living is much harder than having an actual job to make a living (although it is not the glorious job that some people think it would be). I'm saying it can be more strenuous on your mind. Because when playing poker at the level that Schneids is playing it at, you have to be completely focused for the entire session. If you're not, then you will lose most of the time. And I think it's even harder online because with the increased speed and ability to multi table, you have many more hands to concentrate on, and no time to relax in between hands. So it is a constant grind throughout a session with little time to relax. In a real job, you don't have to be completely focused throughout the entire time your at work (think Office Space here /images/graemlins/grin.gif). I'm not saying that working a real job is easy. Just saying that your head will not be completely worn out all the time when you're done working 8 hours a day.

One last thought, you should not be chastising Schneids for not playing when he didn't want to. You should actually be applauding him. Because what do all the great poker authors say in their books? They say if your not feeling up to it, then you shouldn't play.

Blarg

07-15-2004, 08:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As an aside, I can put in a ten hour session at the casino no problem, but I start to go insane after about two hours of multi-tabling online.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too, at least partly. I can do better than two hours online, but it's way harder to multi-table than play one table at a live casino, as far as the concentration part goes.

I've played well over 20 hours at a shot in live casinos many times, but I rarely play more than five or six hours at a shot online. Partly because I work full time and I have to sleep sometime, and get other things done too. Also because if I play long stretches on weekends, why not break it up by having a nice leisurely lunch or break to do things I need to do, or just relax every so often?

I've put in some pretty long days overall online on weekends though, sometimes, just not necessarily in one connected stretch. A little recharge time does wonders, just like you take breaks and lunch periods on a regular job.

gibs

07-15-2004, 08:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I played 10/20 and 15/30 stud 40 hours a week in a casino

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a lot of hours, but it was in a casino. Like the point that was made earlier, playing online is a lot more taxing on your mind because of the increased speed and multiple tables. Thus, 20 hours of plaing online can feel like 40 hours of playing in a casino. I know I have been at a casino playing for 5 hours where it felt like nothing. At times I have played 3-4 hour session on line and it seems like I've been playing for ever.

OnlinePokerCoach

07-15-2004, 08:40 PM

Yup, I generally want to stop after around 1.5 hours.

BarronVangorToth

07-15-2004, 08:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I played 10/20 and 15/30 stud 40 hours a week in a casino

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a lot of hours, but it was in a casino. Like the point that was made earlier, playing online is a lot more taxing on your mind because of the increased speed and multiple tables. Thus, 20 hours of plaing online can feel like 40 hours of playing in a casino. I know I have been at a casino playing for 5 hours where it felt like nothing. At times I have played 3-4 hour session on line and it seems like I've been playing for ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

5 hours in a casino...?

My buddy and I randomly decided last week to play for 24 straight hours ... and while the last hours weren't as profitable as the first, they still were. Granted, the 4 cups of coffee per hour helped.

But, absolutely, you can play at a casino for 8 hours and it's probably the same amount of taxation on your brain as 1 hour of what I see other friends doing when they're multi-tabling. When you're seeing 400 hands per hour in comparison to ... 30...? 40...? It's not even close.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)
"400 > 40"

stripsqueez

07-15-2004, 09:01 PM

sensational stuff schnieds

plenty of sensible advice in this post but i frankly dont think you need it - what you need to know i'm confident you will work out for yourself in due course

multi tabling for say 6 hours a day is a matter of what your used to - i think a normal person can get to a point of doing this comfortably - whilst i cant claim a long experience of doing it myself to the extent that i have i find it reasonably simple

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

gibs

07-15-2004, 09:02 PM

Calm down there buddy. I was not trying to say that playing for 5 hours in a casino is an amazing amount of time to be playing. I was simply saying that I have played for that amount of time and it felt like nothing, where as I have played for a less amount of time online and it felt like I had been playing for ever.

Blarg

07-15-2004, 09:11 PM

Gibs -- sounds like you're making up a lot of stuff on your own there. And not too well. It seems to me that your first paragraph is illuminating your own psychology rather than that of people you are trying to comment on. You should stick to refuting arguments and not attacking posters.

[ QUOTE ]
With poker being his job, he has the ability to take time off when he wants.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all true. I thought I remembered Schneids actually saying he does not want to play poker for a living, incidentally.

But regardless, even people playing poker for a living have to play whatever number of hours is necessary to cover their monthly nut and then accomplish their other goals.

Sometimes they'll be playing when they don't want to play. And if they don't, their income will suffer.

Playing poker for a living is quite a dull grind. Not that most other jobs aren't. But it's fair to say that poker probably stops being particularly fun or exciting after a while for almost all players, and they'll be playing plenty when they would rather being doing something else.

And heck, that's even if they're WINNING.

[ QUOTE ]
"You think playing 6-8 hours of poker a day is a long day, try working for 8 or more hours a day." I suggest you try playing for 6-8 hours a day, every day, for at least a month. Probably not as easy as you think

[/ QUOTE ]

Lots of us have. Why is it that you would presume we haven't? You presume a LOT in your post. Very, very bad habit that won't serve you well. Playing 6 to 8 hours of poker is neither as rare nor as extraordinary an effort as you seem to think. And life is absolutely stuffed full of people doing far, far harder things than that.

Besides, Schneids' goal wasn't necessarily to play every day for 6 to 8 hours a day, either, as I recall. It was to make 60k in 60 days. If he made it all in one day, he could quit, and if it took playing every day, fine. One thing we could probably all agree on is that it was a tough goal to achieve, and that it would be very hard to do so without putting in a lot of hard, consistent work.

It probably wouldn't have been an interesting goal otherwise, right?

So veering off into live play, tournaments, higher limits(!!! people usually LOSE money when they go up in limits, at least for a while -- or at least their earnings rate often drops for a while) or just enjoying your summer was very human, but it was pretty far from working hard or smart to achieve a goal. Let's not talk like this goal was some vicious dragon set against him, either -- he chose it himself of his own free will. My guess is he had an inkling of what he was in for and the discipline that would be required. He's smart and has been playing poker for a while now -- nobody ambushed him.

This is a pretty smart and engaging kid, and I was rooting for him big time and still am, and read all his posts on his quest. I honestly think he could have accomplished his goal, and it would have been a very good thing for him -- completely apart from the money aspects of having an extra $30k, though that couldn't hurt either.

That he likes taking time off and hanging with his friends -- I think he probably already knew that in the first place and anybody could guess it to be true of any other human being, and is not quite the triumph of acquired wisdom it might seem. Having had a more fun summer than he might have had if he played more is a consolation prize of sorts, but it would have been interesting also to see what would have happened if he actually did work more -- now we'll never know if that would have sucked so terribly badly for him as some seem to imply it would as though that were a foregone conclusion, or if the extra $30k would have done one heck of a lot to make that time seem very well spent indeed. I doubt I'm the only one who thinks he might have fond another $30k well worth the "suffering."

But now neither he nor we will ever know, and it seems that's what this quest was about in the first place.

In terms of enjoying two months worth of summer -- high marks! Unfortunately that can't change falling so far short of his own self-chosen goal -- whose outcome couldn't really be pinned down with any certainty anyway -- but which he seemed to more or less give up on and start screwing around with partway through.

Ulysses

07-15-2004, 09:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think most of you are unjustly being too harsh on Schneids. Why? My thought would be out of jealousy.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I also said that I thought people were being a little harsh on Schneids, I really didn't get a sense that it was out of jealousy.

[ QUOTE ]
Had Schneids not have started off real well, or really needed all the money he could get, then I'm sure he would have been diciplined to keep going.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm... That seems just as much (actually perhaps greater) of a leap as those who question his ability to be disclipined.

[ QUOTE ]
Because when playing poker at the level that Schneids is playing it at, you have to be completely focused for the entire session. If you're not, then you will lose most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's just untrue. If it were true, my online bankroll would be long, long gone. And probably Schneids' as well.

gibs

07-15-2004, 10:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With poker being his job, he has the ability to take time off when he wants.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not at all true. I thought I remembered Schneids actually saying he does not want to play poker for a living, incidentally.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, poker is his job for this summer. I did not say that poker is the job he will have for the rest of his life.

[ QUOTE ]
But regardless, even people playing poker for a living have to play whatever number of hours is necessary to cover their monthly nut and then accomplish their other goals.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think he made quite a bit more money than he actually needs at this point in his life. This is evident by the fact that he went out and bought a car, and said he was going to look into investing some of the rest. He did not necessarily need a nice new car or to make some investments at this point in his life. As far as reaching his goal, I think it is absurd to say he has a lack of motivation since he did not meat a lofty goal. And the goal was more of a challenge to him to see if he could actually do it. It's not like he desperately needed $60K this summer and thus drew up a goal to help him get there.

[ QUOTE ]
So veering off into live play, tournaments, higher limits(!!! people usually LOSE money when they go up in limits, at least for a while -- or at least their earnings rate often drops for a while) or just enjoying your summer was very human, but it was pretty far from working hard or smart to achieve a goal. Let's not talk like this goal was some vicious dragon set against him, either -- he chose it himself of his own free will. My guess is he had an inkling of what he was in for and the discipline that would be required. He's smart and has been playing poker for a while now -- nobody ambushed him.

[/ QUOTE ]
What's wrong with changing things up? Schneids said he was getting burned out, so why not try something else to rekindle that flame? Sounds logical to me. And yes, it was his own self-chosen goal, and a lofty one at that. And it wasn't a goal that he really needed. He didn't really need $60K that badly. It was just a challenge to himself for the summer. He found out a little more than half way through that it was unlikely he would be able to achieve his goal. It's not like he just slacked off on something he needed to be doing.

[ QUOTE ]
honestly think he could have accomplished his goal, and it would have been a very good thing for him -- completely apart from the money aspects of having an extra $30k, though that couldn't hurt either.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know that he could have accomplished his goal. When he started out, he was in the midst of a very good run. Later on he ran into a dry spell and fell off the pace. He would have had to of hit an incredibly hot streak to have reached his goal in the end. I think to reach a goal like this, you would have to be running good for the full 60 days. Not saying you couldn't have any bad days, just saying you couldn't go into a dry spell.

[ QUOTE ]
Having had a more fun summer than he might have had if he played more is a consolation prize of sorts, but it would have been interesting also to see what would have happened if he actually did work more -- now we'll never know if that would have sucked so terribly badly for him as some seem to imply it would as though that were a foregone conclusion, or if the extra $30k would have done one heck of a lot to make that time seem very well spent indeed.

[/ QUOTE ]
Life is not all about making money. Money is great, but you have to be able to enjoy life. Yeah an extra $30K would be great, but why bust your ass and burn yourself out on something you used to enjoy for some more money that you don't necessarily need. Yeah he would have been able to say that he met his goal, but as Schneids said, it was more important to him to spend time with his friends than to continue to try to meet his goal.

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"You think playing 6-8 hours of poker a day is a long day, try working for 8 or more hours a day." I suggest you try playing for 6-8 hours a day, every day, for at least a month. Probably not as easy as you think

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lots of us have. Why is it that you would presume we haven't? You presume a LOT in your post. Very, very bad habit that won't serve you well. Playing 6 to 8 hours of poker is neither as rare nor as extraordinary an effort as you seem to think. And life is absolutely stuffed full of people doing far, far harder things than that.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was not replying to you here. Someone else had made this claim, and it looked obvious that this guy had not tried to play that many hours for that many days straight. As you will see I noted below, I was not specifically replying to you in my original post. But have you really played that many hours for that many days straight never taking a day to clear your head? Just asking here. Because it seems that if you have then you would be a little more understanding of why Schneids fell off in his hours towards the end, and ended up taking some days off.

Note: my first response was not directed entirely at you. I'm sorry, I should have made this clear, but your post was the last one I read so I clicked on it to make my reply. I was replying to all of those who were saying that Schneids lacked motivation in trying to reach his goal.

GuyOnTilt

07-15-2004, 10:11 PM

Hey Blarg,

Actually, you obviously have no basis for your claim, so I have no idea why you made it.

I wasn't meaning to make any claim against you; I was merely stating that playing online is hard to do "fulltime," but apparently you decided to take it personally...

Incidentally, Schneids didn't player poker 6 hours/day for two months straight.

That's because, like I said, it's extremely difficult to do.

I played 10/20 and 15/30 stud 40 hours a week in a casino while working full time for well over a year, and I've put in long hours in the casino while working full time and going to school, too. At other times in my life I've worked 60 hours a week while going to school full time.

Okay. Sweet. But if you detached yourself from your defensive attitude you'd notice that I was specifically speaking of online play. I can put in a 25 hour weekend at a casino, but put me in front of a monitor and I'm completely spent after a few hours. I was never doubting your ability to go to school and put in a full work week, nor do I care.

I'm well aware of what's hard and what's not.

Again with the defensiveness...Chill.

GoT

gibs

07-15-2004, 10:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Had Schneids not have started off real well, or really needed all the money he could get, then I'm sure he would have been diciplined to keep going.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmmm... That seems just as much (actually perhaps greater) of a leap as those who question his ability to be disclipined.

[/ QUOTE ]
My point here was that you cannot infer that he lacks dicipline because he slacked off in the end. He did not desperately need $60K this summer so it is no big deal that after getting burned out he chose to relax on the goal and spend time doing things that were more important and more fun to him. Now had he actually needed the $60K this summer for whatever reason, then you could say he was not diciplined in slacking off in his goal.

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Because when playing poker at the level that Schneids is playing it at, you have to be completely focused for the entire session. If you're not, then you will lose most of the time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's just untrue. If it were true, my online bankroll would be long, long gone. And probably Schneids' as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't make this quite clear, but I wasn't trying to say that you had to be 100% focused at all times during you poker session. My point was that playing 4 tables at 10/20 (not really considered high limits, but a good size to most posters here) takes a lot of concentration and is more taxing on your mind. You cannot just sit there and space out for a while like you could to at your desk while at work if you were getting tired and needed a break.

Ulysses

07-15-2004, 11:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think to reach a goal like this, you would have to be running good for the full 60 days. Not saying you couldn't have any bad days, just saying you couldn't go into a dry spell.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, not really at all. The reason Schneids didn't reach his goal is not because he hit a dry patch. It's because he didn't get in the hours. Schneids plays well enough that if he were really focused on achieving this goal, he could have done it.

Ulysses

07-15-2004, 11:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My point was that playing 4 tables at 10/20 (not really considered high limits, but a good size to most posters here) takes a lot of concentration and is more taxing on your mind. You cannot just sit there and space out for a while like you could to at your desk while at work if you were getting tired and needed a break.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I thought your point was. My point was simply that many good players multi-tabling those games do indeed space out for periods, just like you do when sitting at your desk at work.

Blarg

07-16-2004, 12:10 AM

jfresh

07-16-2004, 12:12 AM

I'm sure Schneids will voice his own reasons, but here's my thinking as a fellow college student. A lot of what you said about needing dedication in life to succeed is true, but I don't think it applies 100% here.

Yes, Schneids is the only one who set the 60k in 60 days goal. Yes, he slacked off a bit at the end, as well as dabbling in higher limits and tournies. However, I don't think this can be seen as a reflection of his true character, or his dedication in general.

When you are busting your ass, whether it is to get that college degree, or at your job, you are doing it because it will greatly affect your future; getting a well paying job is easier with a degree, and working your way up the corporate ladder will in turn earn you more money to support your future family, etc. in Schneid's case, does a college student REALLY need another 30k? You have the rest of your life to earn money, and play poker for that matter. Besides the money, what is any good reason for him to bust his ass, playing 8 hours a day for his entire summer?

As a college student, I know there is much more to life right now than playing poker. You definitely DO NOT want to make poker a priority in college; there is just so much more to enjoy. Although poker can make you money, college helps build you up socially, mentally, and physically, and you need to do other things besides poker to do that.

Thus, I don't think anyone should be questioning Scheid's "character" or "dedication"... I would be more worried if he turned away all his friends, family and other resposibilites and played poker 60 hours a week just to make his goal.

Cosimo

07-16-2004, 12:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
what is any good reason for him to bust his ass, playing 8 hours a day for his entire summer?

[/ QUOTE ]

To prove (to yourself) that you can do it. A day job is hard work; there are a lot of goals in life that are hard work. I think discipline can be trained, though. One reason to take on a quest like this is to put yourself through the discomfort to see if it's something you want to do, or something you can do. At the end of it, one is also more prepared to commit to other hard tasks.

Yeah, so I'm being vague. I think hard work that comes with a reward is worth doing. I think the "good reason" for busting your ass all summer is an extra $30,000.

gibs

07-16-2004, 12:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With poker being his job, he has the ability to take time off when he wants.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not at all true. I thought I remembered Schneids actually saying he does not want to play poker for a living, incidentally.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, poker is his job for this summer. I did not say that poker is the job he will have for the rest of his life.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Never said you did. You just called it a job. If you're not doing it for a living, and don't intend to, though, I'm not sure it's really a job.

[/ QUOTE ]
First I said it was his job (for the summer), and then you said that you remember Schneids saying he didn't want to play poker for a living. Then I countered with I didn't say he was doing it for a living, he is doing it as a summer job. And then you say if you're not doing it for a living and don't intend to then it's not a job? So if I go and get a job this summer at a sporting goods store to make money for my next year of college it isn't really a job? Please explain this.

And you keep on going on about the goal like it was his sole purpose in life. From what you have been saying, since he didn't reach his goal he has a lack of dicipline?

[ QUOTE ]
His goal wasn't to live life. As someone not dead yet, that goal has already been met.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, but this is by far the dumbest quote I have ever heard. You think that by simply being alive you are living life? Come on. You know as well as I do that simply being alive is not considered to be "living life."

[ QUOTE ]
Finally, I agree that none of this back and forth is meant to be personal, and if it were, ir wouldn't really have value. I doubt anyone here looks down on Schneids for winning 30k in 60 days or thinks that's not a great achievement. His mom has a point though -- smart lady.

The ability to stick to your goals or responsibilities, to have discipline, is definitely huge in life. Poker too! And it's not something that young people often find the easiest thing to do.

[/ QUOTE ]
His mom does have a point in that you need to be responsible and have dicipline. But what I have been trying to say this whole time is that this one case does not show that Schneids has a lack of dicipline. He did set this goal himself and you should try to reach your goals, but it's not like this was that important of a goal. Like I said before, it was simply a challenge for the summer. So he gets a little over half way through it, sees he already has about $30K in his pocket, and is getting burned out. So what is more important? Reaching a goal that isn't all that important, or making sure that you enjoy your hobby by not burning yourself out?

Although it seemed like it at first, I no longer think that your's and some of the other responses were intended to attack Schneids. But I am still saying that this one case does not show that he lacks dicipline. Like I said in another post, had this been a goal that he really needed to reach, and then he slacked of towards then end when it got hard, then you could say he lacks dicipline. But when he cuts back on trying to achieve a goal that is not all that important and no longer has much meaning to him, then that does not show a lack of dicipline.

GuyOnTilt

07-16-2004, 01:03 AM

If you're not doing it for a living, and don't intend to, though, I'm not sure it's really a job.

Semantics, I know, but I think you're wrong. I currently play poker as my sole source of income. Is it my job? Yes. Profession? No. Occupation? Career? No. There is a distinction.

GoT

Sully

07-16-2004, 02:17 AM

I wanted to respond to about 30 different things on this thread, but I got so frustrated and tired that I can't respond to any specific point. So let me just say this:

Easy does it, Blarg. Your ideas are not incorrect, I just don't think that they apply to this particular situation. We're talking about a pretty impressive college kid here. Your lectures are more fashioned for the guy who is always looking for the easy way out. The guy who quits job after job after job, looking for the easy money. You know the type.

He definitely does not fit that mold. Even though he got off track, I'd say he gave this thing a darn good shot. Somewhere in there, he realized that reaching his goal would cost him a lot of happiness...things money can't provide. He had enough money, so he re-set his priorities, and was kind enough and persistent enough to keep us abreast of it the entire way.

As the owner of a small company, I'd hire ten guys like Schneids over one clock-punching grinder, and I think I'd be just fine. It's guys like Schneids who actually go out in the world, do the big things, live a good life, and die with a smile on their face and a lot of sad friends.

Save your crotchety lectures for those who actually need it.

Surfbullet

07-16-2004, 02:22 AM

Amen Sully.

Dan

Blarg

07-16-2004, 02:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Blarg,

Actually, you obviously have no basis for your claim, so I have no idea why you made it.

I wasn't meaning to make any claim against you; I was merely stating that playing online is hard to do "fulltime," but apparently you decided to take it personally...

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, why is it "obvious" I took it personally? I didn't. But you actually did say, directly to me in your response and even quoted my response to do it:

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You've obviously never tried playing poker 6 hours/day for two months straight. As Schneids has found out, it's quite taxing playing poker online full-time for any extended period of time.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's simply an incorrect assumption, and, again, I don't know why you made it without really knowing the facts involved. Doesn't mean I'm taking anything personally. That's a second incorrect assumption in as many tries.

You have twice made incorrect and actually totally groundless assumptions and said it was "obvious" they were true. "Obviously," doing that is not only pointless, but isn't very wise and isn't working out to well.

[ QUOTE ]
Incidentally, Schneids didn't player poker 6 hours/day for two months straight.

That's because, like I said, it's extremely difficult to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Difficult, yes, but there are plenty of things in life more difficult than that. It's certainly not possible without discipline, though. At first, Schneids seemed to have it, too, so it certainly wasn't beyond him.

[ QUOTE ]
I played 10/20 and 15/30 stud 40 hours a week in a casino while working full time for well over a year, and I've put in long hours in the casino while working full time and going to school, too. At other times in my life I've worked 60 hours a week while going to school full time.

Okay. Sweet. But if you detached yourself from your defensive attitude you'd notice that I was specifically speaking of online play. I can put in a 25 hour weekend at a casino, but put me in front of a monitor and I'm completely spent after a few hours. I was never doubting your ability to go to school and put in a full work week, nor do I care.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, your post did NOT specify online play, nor is that the only thing relevant to what having discipline and being able to concentrate for long periods of time is all about.

Second, it's not only online play that is work, is difficult, or requires extended periods of concentration, and therefore it is not something that holds particular status as unimaginably hard or something the likes of which nobody has done or could do.

Frankly, I don't think there's a chance in the world that playing poker online six hours a day, in the comfort of your own home, quite often waking and sleeping whenever you like, dressed however you like, taking breaks whenever you feel like it, no boss to grief you or coworkers to backstab you, getting up to get a bite to eat or stretch a bit once in a while, is tougher than spending 8 or 10 hours a day(or more) working like most people do and perhaps spending hours more driving to get there. (Some people spend more three hours or more a day in their car alone -- pretty common here in Southern California actually.)

Third, just STOP with the making stuff up and reading into things what only exists in your own head. It's better to discuss things without making constant imaginative assumptions about the person you are speaking with -- all both incorrect and unflattering, to boot. STICK TO THE DISCUSSION for goodness sake.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm well aware of what's hard and what's not.

Again with the defensiveness...Chill.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please, I beg of you ... enough with the mind-reading. If you are going to carelessly indulge so very much in telling people what they "obviously" know and don't and have experienced and haven't, don't compound it by calling them defensive and telling them to chill when they merely point out that your assumptions are (and repeatedly) simply incorrect. Nobody likes words put in their mouths, having what they say twisted, or being treated to bungling amateur psychology as the cherry on top of it all, in lieu of the give and take of real discussion.

As you suggest yourself, "chill."

Blarg

07-16-2004, 02:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, Schneids is the only one who set the 60k in 60 days goal. Yes, he slacked off a bit at the end, as well as dabbling in higher limits and tournies. However, I don't think this can be seen as a reflection of his true character, or his dedication in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I didn't make a definitive statement on the whole life or future of a young man just by noting that he seems to have dropped his discipline halfway through a single goal.

There is some utility in not sweeping that aspect of things under the rug, is all. And things were certainly heading that way very strongly.

Blarg

07-16-2004, 02:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
To prove (to yourself) that you can do it. A day job is hard work; there are a lot of goals in life that are hard work. I think discipline can be trained, though. One reason to take on a quest like this is to put yourself through the discomfort to see if it's something you want to do, or something you can do. At the end of it, one is also more prepared to commit to other hard tasks.

Yeah, so I'm being vague. I think hard work that comes with a reward is worth doing. I think the "good reason" for busting your ass all summer is an extra $30,000.

[/ QUOTE ]

There we go.

Surfbullet

07-16-2004, 03:08 AM

GoT's initial post refers to Schneid's attempt at 6 hrs a day, for 2 months. I believe it is implied (and fairly openly) online multitabling, as that was what Schneids was attempting.

From personal experience, I have had 8+ hr poker sessions in a live game that I felt were fun and not at all challenging, while logging over 3 hours of 4 tabling I find much more strenuous.

It seems the GoT's assumption that you have NOT attempted such extensive multitabling to be true as your defense was that you had played a significant amount of live games, which is not relevant.

If you have done such extensive multitabling, days on end for many hours a day, then you understand the difficulties.
Otherwise, the arguments you have been presenting have been based on assumptions you have made about the difficulty of an endeavor that you have not experienced, and thus those arguments have far less worth.

I think that discipline and being able to put one's nose to the grindstone is an incredibly important lesson. However, even more important IMHO is to prioritize one's time - I recently was in a similar situation ( lesson-wise, not $60k-wise ), and acted much the same way. Having proven to myself that I have discipline when necessary, it was superfluous to complete a strenuous, prolonged task for it's own sake when there were no benefits from its completion except pride.

Learning when to do what makes you happy in the face of conformity and the lure of money is something millions of overworked and unhappy "adults" should learn.

Dan

Blarg

07-16-2004, 04:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And you keep on going on about the goal like it was his sole purpose in life. From what you have been saying, since he didn't reach his goal he has a lack of dicipline?

[/ QUOTE ]

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My point here was that you cannot infer that he lacks dicipline because he slacked off in the end.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it seems he proved it himself that he didn't have discipline. And admitted it himself in his journals even if others seem reluctant to. So what's the problem? Nothing unclear or difficult here in the slightest.

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First I said it was his job (for the summer)

[/ QUOTE ]

My recollection is you did not qualify your statement this way until later.

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If you're not doing it for a living, and don't intend to, though, I'm not sure it's really a job.

[/ QUOTE ]

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you say if you're not doing it for a living and don't intend to then it's not a job?

[/ QUOTE ]

I said, as you quoted, that I wasn't sure that doing something you don't do for a living and don't intend to, and don't need to, is a very good way to define what a job is. Not by the ordinary or probably even a useful definition of the word. If it is a job, certainly you would expect it to be approached with the rigor of one, also. Not just done here and there. That conclusion seems not terribly outrageous.

Heck, you yourself wind up referring to it as merely a hobby. And your arguments certainly suggesting looking at it and treating it like one.

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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His goal wasn't to live life. As someone not dead yet, that goal has already been met.

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I'm sorry, but this is by far the dumbest quote I have ever heard. You think that by simply being alive you are living life? Come on. You know as well as I do that simply being alive is not considered to be "living life."

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh come on, lighten up.

[ QUOTE ]
So what is more important? Reaching a goal that isn't all that important, or making sure that you enjoy your hobby by not burning yourself out?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess that would be Schneid's call and not for us to say. Nobody else can call it. I doubt we even have all the reasons for why this went south, and I'd be surprised if Schneids wasn't working that out himself a little too.

I don't think making it seem like the goal was not worthwhile or was somehow just too tough is getting closer to any kind of truth about the matter, though.

One thing for sure is that outlook definitely doesn't flatter him. Either his judgment or his ability. He might well have done 60k, or something close, in 60 days if he really put his mind to it. I wouldn't be surprised if he could set himself to it tomorrow and get there in two months if he had the time. His first few weeks definitely showed he has the potential.

Blarg

07-16-2004, 04:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you're not doing it for a living, and don't intend to, though, I'm not sure it's really a job.

Semantics, I know, but I think you're wrong. I currently play poker as my sole source of income. Is it my job? Yes. Profession? No. Occupation? Career? No. There is a distinction.

[/ QUOTE ]

Regardless, that doesn't make poker not your job if it's your primary source of earned income.

Blarg

07-16-2004, 04:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Easy does it, Blarg. Your ideas are not incorrect, I just don't think that they apply to this particular situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

You misread entirely if you take things the way you seem to. Saying Schneids exhibited lack of discipline is not an all out attack on the guy; he admitted as much himself and it's transparently true.

Reading anything more into it and responding to that is initiating crotchety lectures of your own.

Blarg

07-16-2004, 04:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It seems the GoT's assumption that you have NOT attempted such extensive multitabling to be true as your defense was that you had played a significant amount of live games, which is not relevant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Surfbullet, you not only didn't correctly read the post, but compounded that error by inventing a conclusion out of thin air.

Further, online multi-tabling is hardly the be-all and end-all of difficulty on this planet. It doesn't deserve being lifted into quite so lofty a heaven.

[ QUOTE ]
when there were no benefits from its completion except pride.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but the benefits here were a little more than pride. They were proving you could do something difficult, which is a pretty worthwhile challenge in itself, seeing how you would hold up under the pressure, and possibly coming away with another $30k to show for it.

Any or all of those are worthwhile things; if Schneids hadn't thought so he wouldn't have first dreamed up the goal and then set it himself and even made it public and very well known. Some of you guys do a LOT of second-guessing him, as if you know more about him than he knows himself -- as if he didn't have the self-knowledge to set goals he had a chance of at least coming close to achieving, or the capability of achieving what he sets out to do. I think he has both, but he stumbled. And lack of discipline was both apparent and admitted. For heaven's sake, just noting an obvious fact doesn't mean the poor guy is now branded for life and eternally doomed, so it's absurd to approach the discussion as if that's what's really being said.

Frankly, considering Schneids, I would be surprised if he COULDN'T do it, if he ever tried again.

skunkworks

07-16-2004, 06:18 AM

Schneids did what he did for 60 days, and maybe he learned about what he can and can't do as well as what he needs to improve on. I enjoyed following his quest, but that's irrelevant.

But honestly, why 8 consecutive posts overdefending your position? You're making this discussion seem like it matters greatly to your well-being. Why are you so emotionally invested in this?

chezlaw

07-16-2004, 09:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
We don't really know what he's realize and what he hasn't, though you put a very nice slant on things. We do know that Schneids self-selected and set a precise goal for himself; nobody forced him into it. Therefore, not achieving that self-selected goal is hardly a triumph of enlightenment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. Re-assessing your goals is not always a bad thing though. I think Schneids got it about right which may say more about me then it does about him.

[ QUOTE ]
You're making things a little too cosmic

[/ QUOTE ]

I've achieved a goal I didn't realise I had /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Blarg

07-16-2004, 11:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
why 8 consecutive posts overdefending your position? You're making this discussion seem like it matters greatly to your well-being. Why are you so emotionally invested in this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Responding to people who respond to you is more natural than not. Why wouldn't you? And what does counting have to do with it?

Reading too much into unremarkable things seems making an emotional investment of your own.

Guido

07-16-2004, 12:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The ability to stick to your goals or responsibilities, to have discipline, is definitely huge in life. Poker too! And it's not something that young people often find the easiest thing to do.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why not just say this and be done with it?

Like gibs said it's not the sole purpose in life to get these characteristic. You make way to big of a deal out of it.

Do you think it's a good characteristic to be able to work 60 hours a week or more the rest of your live? Is this more important than enjoying life? Is being able to reach goals at the expense of everything else more important than enjoying what you are doing? You keep telling over and over again that disclipline and being able to reach goals are huge in life (very true IMO). This gives the impression that you think that that's more important than enjoying life because the rest keeps telling that enjoying life is more important (also true IMO). What about both? Enjoying life and reaching your goals? I still think enjoying life is more important than reaching goals and I think that's what the rest is trying to make clear to you. While you try to make clear discipline and reaching goals are important. IMO they are both important just don't make such a big deal out of it and just play poker /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Thanks,

Guido

Surfbullet

07-16-2004, 12:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Surfbullet, you not only didn't correctly read the post, but compounded that error by inventing a conclusion out of thin air.

Further, online multi-tabling is hardly the be-all and end-all of difficulty on this planet. It doesn't deserve being lifted into quite so lofty a heaven.

[/ QUOTE ]

All I was saying was that multitabling has a number of challenges when it is done for long hours over the course of many days. I made no comparison to whether it was harder or easier than anything else, it was you who began comparing it to work and school etc in an earlier post.

If, in one of your posts, it says that you have 4-tabled for 5+ hours a day over the span of weeks, then please direct me to it - otherwise, you are making assumptions about the difficulties of a task which you have not attempted.

My personal anecdote was merely meant to show that I believe there are more important things in life than blindly meeting goals for their own sake, or for money's sake. You misread my post and assumed I was talking about Schneids; if you go through the last paragraph again you will notice that I was referring to MY goal which, indeed, had no benefits except pride.

Schneids is different certainly, but his decision to spend time with friends and family instead of sitting in front of a computer earning money he apparently doesn't need is one that shows he is smart enough to recognize that their are more important things in life than meeting goals for their own sake. Whether he has the determination to see a task through when it is necessary remains to be seen (or perhaps has already been seen but not by us), but at least he has his priorities in order.

Dan

gibs

07-16-2004, 01:21 PM

Great post Sully. That was pretty much what I had been trying to say, but you said it a lot better than I did.

gibs

07-16-2004, 01:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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First I said it was his job (for the summer)

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My recollection is you did not qualify your statement this way until later.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, but I thought this was fairly obvious being that he is a college student, and poker is how he is making money over the summer.

[ QUOTE ]
I said, as you quoted, that I wasn't sure that doing something you don't do for a living and don't intend to, and don't need to, is a very good way to define what a job is. Not by the ordinary or probably even a useful definition of the word. If it is a job, certainly you would expect it to be approached with the rigor of one, also. Not just done here and there. That conclusion seems not terribly outrageous.

Heck, you yourself wind up referring to it as merely a hobby. And your arguments certainly suggesting looking at it and treating it like one.

[/ QUOTE ]
Anyway you want to skew it, it is still his job. Playing poker is his sole source of income for the summer. And a hobby can turn into a job, as it has for schneids this summer.

[ QUOTE ]
Oh come on, lighten up.

[/ QUOTE ]
You tell me to lighten up when it is very clear that you need to do so as well?

[ QUOTE ]
One thing for sure is that outlook definitely doesn't flatter him. Either his judgment or his ability.

[/ QUOTE ]
So if you are one who likes to set your goals high then you have bad judgement or a lack of ability since a lot of the time you won't achieve them? When you are setting goals, you usually don't want to set them so they are easily achievable. You want to push yourself. If you set your goal a little to high and don't reach it, then I think that is a lot better than always setting your goals so that they are easliy within reach, because you might have been able to go further. Again, you talk as if setting goals and achieving those goals should be one's sole purpose in life, and if one doesn't do so then they lack dicipline and self-responsibility. I disagree.

GuyOnTilt

07-16-2004, 01:44 PM

You said: You just called it a job. If you're not doing it for a living, and don't intend to, though, I'm not sure it's really a job.

Then: Regardless, that doesn't make poker not your job if it's your primary source of earned income.

Which is it?

GoT

Schneids

07-16-2004, 01:52 PM

Can we beat a dead horse to death anymore than has already been done so?

Replying to a lot of these posts is simply more than I desire to do, but I'll add this: If failing to achieve one particular goal (and admitting it to yourself before the goal's time period has ended) is as much of a reflection about someone's dedication as a few seem to believe, you are wrong. It's that simple. You're wrong.

I do not feel compelled to whip out fifty counter examples now, or in my upcoming final journals. People are entitled to think what they wish.

GuyOnTilt

07-16-2004, 02:20 PM

Hey Blarg,

Umm, why is it "obvious" I took it personally?

I never used the word "obvious" or "obviously" in my 2nd response to you. I said "apparently". It wasn't meant to be personal, despite your continual efforts to make it so.

...and even quoted my response to do it:

I always do that, kind of like I am right now, so that people who view in flat mode have some sort of context as to what I'm replying to. It wasn't meant to be personal, despite your continual efforts to make it so.

You have twice made incorrect and actually totally groundless assumptions and said it was "obvious" they were true.

Again with the "obvious" thing...I used the adverb form of that word once in my original reply to you, and in my 2nd reply I recanted and said it wasn't meant to be aimed at you personally. I haven't done anything "twice" except try to make it clear to you that I wasn't attacking you personally and trying to get you to chill out about this whole thing. So if you would stop putting words into my mouth and saying that I said them twice, I'd appreciate it. None of this was meant to be personal, despite your continual efforts to make it so.

"Obviously," doing that is not only pointless, but isn't very wise and isn't working out to well.

Too well.

Difficult, yes, but there are plenty of things in life more difficult than that.

Okay, cool. Of course there are more difficult things than online poker; I didn't say there weren't.

First, your post did NOT specify online play...

Oh? Maybe you should reread it.

Second, it's not only online play that is work, is difficult, or requires extended periods of concentration, and therefore it is not something that holds particular status as unimaginably hard or something the likes of which nobody has done or could do.

Usually, when you're trying to put together some sort of rebuttal, you make statements that are in contradiction to ones that I put forth. This doesn't qualify.

Frankly, I don't think there's a chance in the world that playing poker online six hours a day, in the comfort of your own home, quite often waking and sleeping whenever you like, dressed however you like, taking breaks whenever you feel like it, no boss to grief you or coworkers to backstab you, getting up to get a bite to eat or stretch a bit once in a while, is tougher than spending 8 or 10 hours a day(or more) working like most people do and perhaps spending hours more driving to get there.

Not "a chance in the world," eh? That's a pretty bold statement for someone who seems to have (and correct me if I'm wrong here) never attempted to put in months of fulltime online play. So, for your sake, let's talk to some people who have tried it and actually know from personal experience instead of ill-based assumptions. Oh, me? Okay! I used to work full-time for United Van Lines. It entailed 40-60 hour weeks of running (and I do literally mean running) people's furniture up and down their double switchback staircases and out of their houses and then running it back into their new ones. It was very hard, very sweaty work, and required long hours and a lot of overtime. Then I quit that and started playing online poker fulltime. Which is harder to do for 40 hours a week? Online poker. So now I, along with numerous other people in this thread, have made it clear to you that concentrating on online poker fulltime for months on end is more difficult than working a "normal" job.

Third, just STOP with the making stuff up and reading into things what only exists in your own head.

By "making stuff up" do you mean like putting words into your mouth and saying that you said them twice? Or by "reading into things what only exists in your own head" do you mean making brash statements about the difficulty, or lack thereof, of playing online poker for extended periods of time when I have no real life experience to draw upon and when those who do say otherwise?

If you are going to carelessly indulge so very much in telling people what they "obviously" know and don't...

Are you done with the obviously's now? Again, I said it once in my original response to you, never in my second, and I went back and said that the statement wasn't meant in a personal way toward you, but rather as a general statement.

...and have experienced and haven't...

So I was wrong in assuming that you yourself haven't attempted to play online poker fulltime for two months or longer? If I was then you have my apologies.

don't compound it by calling them defensive and telling them to chill

Even when you are being defensive and do need to chill?

Nobody likes words put in their mouths

No, no they "obviously" do not.

GoT

LikesToLose

07-16-2004, 02:27 PM

Mike:

In all seriousness, congratulations. You managed to make more in 60 days than the average adult in a year.

Mark

GuyOnTilt

07-16-2004, 02:40 PM

Hey Mike,

As much as I've gotten OT in this thread, I'd like to say congrations. I've been reading your threads whenever I've had the chance to, though I hadn't responded 'til this one, and I admire what you've done. 233.6 hours in the last 59 days is quite a bit more than I've logged. I'm impressed. Keep it up.

GoT

sthief09

07-16-2004, 02:45 PM

personally, I think you're the man /images/graemlins/grin.gif

you set an extremely high goal, and you came up short. whoopty sh!t. I think the most impressive part is that you didn't bust your ass, or sacrifice your entire social life, to get to 60k. most people (myself included probably) wouldn't be able to take the ego hit of failing at something like this. you kicked the shyt out of Party players for 60 days to the tune of $30,000. doesn't sound like much of a failure to me /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

naphand

07-16-2004, 06:33 PM

Walt Whitman once said:

"Most men lead lives of quiet desperation".

And a lot of this is to do with people working hard, tirelessly even, towards a goal that they have long since realised will not bring them happiness. They are lost, yet too blind to turn away.

There is undoubtedly a great deal of merit in self-discipline, hard work and perseverance (few would dispute that these are requirements for success, even among the most talented), what many fail to realise is that this same approach can lead to single-mindedness, self-importance, isolation or even mental or physical collapse.

Are there any entrepreneurs who have never failed? "Failure" is a judgement others put upon you, yet those with experience would say that "failure" is an essential part of "success".

Problems only arise when other people start trying to determine what constitutes "success" and "failure" for you. Life is not about comparing yourself to your "peers" or beating them, or exceeding them. There is no requirement to be better, faster, smarter, tougher - other than the artificial ones placed on people by a society that has forgotten about the value of happiness, or that sees happiness in terms of material success.

The drive towards achievement is at the cost of many other, more valuable things, as many "successful" people find out, especially when they pass their prime. They wake up one day to realise they have wasted their lives chasing an artificial dream.

Quite some time ago, I quit the rat-race (despite being a high-flyer in a blue-chip company) to persue a quieter, more independent existence (for a lot less money). I have bags of enthusiasm, massive perseverance and mental focus, that has not changed. But I have lost the respect of some who see my present happier, more contented life as some kind of drop-out, a failure. I no longer worry about those people, I see the tiredness in their faces, and the desperation.

It's your life Schneids. You choose the game. Let others pick over your contented bones, if they will, they are playing for scraps anyway.