Bobby Hoff Hand

[theBruiser500]

Reading an old thread

http://www.twoplustwo.com/digests/highholdem_arch_sep00_msg.html#546

A few questions here...

"Eggzactly. My read was that he would bet the flop over 99% of the time if I checked. Since he had me covered, the amount he would bet would be somewhere between the size of the pot and half of my chips. Or all in, which is unlikely. "

First of all, why would he bet so big on the flop? I almost never bet the pot or above on the flop after raising preflop. I normally bet 1/2 the pot to 4/5 the pot. Also, if he auto bets the pot for that sized bets, wouldn't he get busted quickly by someone jsut waiting to get a hand against him?

"If I raised him, that in a sense is a reraise (in normal syntax), not the type of thing I'm likely to do with the above hands. I'm pretty sure you are not suggesting that I should, correct?

Not only am I suggesting that you should...you must! I guarantee you that he does it. (This is even more true playing short handed.) "

I agree, doesn't he have to reraise some of those speculative hands preflop some of the time?

"I had a hand the other day where a guy opened for $120 and I was the only caller. I had 5-3 offsuit on the button. The flop came A-10-10 with two of a suit. He bet $200. I thought he was worried. But raising here is still too risky, especially since it breaks Doyle's law about having at least some kind of out. So I just called. After I called I knew he was done with the hand. He checked the turn, I bet $300, and he folded. "

Isn't calling just as bad?

[togilvie]

1) I think most of those hands are much better suited for an opening raise, as opposed to re-raising an original raiser. If the initial raise is $120, a re-raise will bring the total pot to the $600 range. With a $2000 stack size, hands like 67s aren't hitting the flop often enough to make this worthwhile.

2) I agree with you regarding the size of my flop bets (I shoot for 60-75% of the pot size).

3) Calling with position in this scenario controls the size of the pot, and so is better than a raise.

With this flop, you're only going to win a small pot. No reasonable opponent is going to put in lots of money without an Ace or Ten. This thinking is reciprocal (i.e. if your opponent didn't hit the flop, he doesn't want to put a lot of money into the pot either).

If an opponent didn't hit the flop and took a stab at the pot, he is faced with a difficult decision on the turn. If he bets into you, and you have a Ten or Big Ace, he knows he could face a big re-raise. So when he bets(assuming it's of reasonable size), you can safely throw away your trash hand. Meanwhile, if he checks you're able to pick up the pot with the minimum investment.

Contrast this with when you raise. You re-raise to approx the size of the pot (~1000) to find out exactly the same bit of information (he doesn't have an A or T). If he calls and bets the turn you have to throw your hand away. If he re-raises, you have to throw the hand away. And if he calls and checks to you on the turn, the only way you can win this pot is by making another big bet (~2000).

Since you're investing fewer of your chips to win the same size pot, calling here is a much better play.

[Ulysses]

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First of all, why would he bet so big on the flop? I almost never bet the pot or above on the flop after raising preflop.

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There's nothing special about a pot bet on the flop. Raise pre-flop, pot flop, pot turn is a very standard line.

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Also, if he auto bets the pot for that sized bets, wouldn't he get busted quickly by someone jsut waiting to get a hand against him?

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Unless players have very few chips or are really bad, potting the flop does not commit their stack.

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Isn't calling just as bad?

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On a lot of scary boards, a flop call w/ position can set you up to take down the pot on the turn. In the right situation this can be a very good move w/ two cards and position.

[theBruiser500]

Even if it doesn't commit there stack though, if I remember right the guy who made the post only had $2000 or so. So if he bets $120 preflop, and then he auto bets $300, well that's a lot of money. That's 1/5 this other guys stack. Not to mention, people often say on 2+2 autobeting the flop is a leak, so why is Bobby Hoff autobetting?

"On a lot of scary boards, a flop call w/ position can set you up to take down the pot on the turn. In the right situation this can be a very good move w/ two cards and position. "

I realize that, however, he said Doyle Brunson says to not bet without an out - so he cannot raise the flop. I don't see how he can't raise the flop with this logic, but he can call and bet the turn.

[Ulysses]

You need to broaden your thinking, bruiser.

[The Gift Of Gab]

two points:

first, bobby hoff is not opening for 120 with qjo because it's such a neat hand and he wants to play a big pot. i suspect he made the large open because he thought he had good control and could win the pot with a bet on the flop pretty often. this way he wins a bigger pot.

second, the reason a call-bluff is better than a raise-bluff here is that you lose less when your read is wrong. tommy knows this guy is afraid of him and will play the turn honestly, meaning that he'll probably bet if he has something and check and fold if he doesn't.