Calling down a good player

[rtucker5]

I was in a very good 15 game at the Bellagio when this hand came up. Everyone folded to me and I raised from 2 off the button with 99. The CO, Button, SB, and BB called. The BB was the only player in the game that had a clue. He was a very solid player that didn't get out of line.

The flop came down favorably for me 10 9 3 rainbow. Checked to me and I bet. The Button and BB called. The turn came a K that completed the rainbow. Check, I bet, fold, and now the BB check raised. I called. The river was an 8. He bet and I just called. Thoughts?

[bicyclekick]

easy river raise. if he had qj you just beat him, he doesn't have tt or kk likely. Probably KQ or qj or something...or even KT

[Michael Davis]

The river didn't pair the board.

-Michael

[34TheTruth34]

I'm not exactly sure what a "very solid player that didn't get out of line" means, but the opponent in question would have to be very weak tight before I would even consider just calling the turn. You need to reraise here and not doing it is leaving a bunch of bets on the table against most opponents. If he caps, just call the river bet.

[elindauer]

I think you played too passively here. Put in another raise. With all the cold calls in front of him, a good player can call from the big blind with a wide range of hands that have turned two pair.

my 2 cents.
Eric

[rtucker5]

He was a very good player. I think he folds alot of hands to a turn 3 bet. I think I could have raised the river though.

[ike]

He can also checkraise this board with a lot less than 2pair. Top pair with a gutshot is a very good reason to 3bet this turn.

Raise the river?!?!?

I don't understand how the river raise is different from the turn raise. The river doesn't change anything so why not raise the turn?

`dude

[MrGo]

I agree with Dude. Raising the river is more dangerous than 3-betting the turn. You must reraise the turn here. You can't be afraid of an over-set. He's most likely on two pair or a King.

[steveyz]

If you think your opponent would laydown a K or similar decent but not great hands to your turn 3-bet, there's definitely an argument for waiting till the river to raise. If you just call, it's very likely your opponent will bet into you again on the river and he's also more like to call the river raise than a turn 3-bet.
I'd only use this move if I was sure that my opponent folds a lot to the 3-bet here, which isn't necessarily a bad thing since if he has KQ or KJ, he has a gut-shot.

[rtucker5]

[ QUOTE ]
If you think your opponent would laydown a K or similar decent but not great hands to your turn 3-bet, there's definitely an argument for waiting till the river to raise. If you just call, it's very likely your opponent will bet into you again on the river and he's also more like to call the river raise than a turn 3-bet.
I'd only use this move if I was sure that my opponent folds a lot to the 3-bet here, which isn't necessarily a bad thing since if he has KQ or KJ, he has a gut-shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with everything you have said here. I'm not sure if he would continue with a hand like KJ. There is also a chance I am beat. I usually insta 3 bet the turn here, but for some reason chose to just call. I posted the hand because I think an arguement can be made for both plays and I wanted to hear thoughts from others.

[rtucker5]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with Dude. Raising the river is more dangerous than 3-betting the turn. You must reraise the turn here. You can't be afraid of an over-set. He's most likely on two pair or a King.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or QJ for the nuts. And who knows, he may be making a move. I think my biggest mistake was not putting in another raise somewhere, whether it be the turn or river.

[MrGo]

Steve makes a good point in that if you think you'll opp. will lay down to a 3-bet, a call on the turn is not as poor as once thought. It's still dangerous if he has a gutshot. I would still be inclined to 3-bet the turn however.

[DeeJ]

Where's the raise?!

Both on the turn and the river you can shove chips in - any old 10 or 9 or AK will be way behind. Sure, sometimes you will lose but surely +EV to raise turn. If reraised you can call down at the river.

If he called the turn raise I'm probably just calling a river bet, but betting out if he checks and calling a raise because he could have made two pair or hold AA.

Raising the river is a good play is if you think he'll call you with a worse hand, but if that's the case then you're already beating him so why not reraise the turn? You will get much more information and a better feel on the turn than on the river. It looks like one of those situations where you're either ahead or behind.

If he reraises the river I'm pretty sure you're folding, right?

`dude

[steveyz]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising the river is a good play is if you think he'll call you with a worse hand, but if that's the case then you're already beating him so why not reraise the turn? You will get much more information and a better feel on the turn than on the river. It looks like one of those situations where you're either ahead or behind.

If he reraises the river I'm pretty sure you're folding, right?

`dude

[/ QUOTE ]

Again the I think the main point of not raising the turn is not because you are afraid of being beat, but that there's a good chance your opponent lays down a hand like AKo that's drawing dead to you, but would have put in another bet on the river if you just smooth called the turn. His calling your river raise is not mandantory for this to be the correct play.
And yeah, if re-raised on the river, I'd probably lay it down.

[anatta]

If we have to chose one hand to put him on, its QJ for the nuts, since QJo is playable from the BB for a raise, and no queens or jacks are blocked by the board or you. (16 combos)

The second most likely hand is KT. (9 combos). He might also have K9, but since you have nines blocked, this is remote. Might fold this preflop too unless sooted. So maybe 10 combos here.

What else can he have. Oh yeah, we are putting him on a semibluff or AK. Okay. But wont he three bet AK? Good chance not always. So that leaves KJ or KQ. Okay, these makes sense too. But its pretty aggressive for someone to checkraise a preflop raiser (even though its a steal) with these hands, right? I mean WE would say we do it here since we are all aggressive tricky studly players on the forum, but in real life, we bet out. (I'll be honest, I have never seen a player actually play as tough as you guys post!).

Since this guy is a "not get out of line" type, I'd say its at least even money nuts vs. two pair/semi bluff. Since a raise is 2:1, the call down is good, IMO.