Turn raises - 2 QTs hands

[TheRake]

I actually don't remember my reads on the players involved in these hands. I have had these hands to post for about a week and a half and am just getting around to it. I am mostly interested in my turn play on both these hands, but comments on all streets are welcome.

Hand 1:
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: TheRake is Button with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, TheRake calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 bets, MP2 folds, TheRake calls, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
UTG+2 bets, TheRake raises, UTG+2 calls.

River: (7.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
UTG+2 checks, TheRake bets, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 9.50 BB, between TheRake and UTG+2.</font>


Hand 2:
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: TheRake is Button with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $3.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO (poster) checks, TheRake raises, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, CO folds.

Flop: (11.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 bets, TheRake calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 bets, TheRake raises, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls.

River: (12.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
MP2 checks, TheRake bets, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 14.25 BB, between MP2 and TheRake.</font>

Thanks,
TheRake

[Bill Smith]

I think both hands were overplayed on the turn - cold calls seem to be in order.

In hand 1, what does everyone think about a raise on the flop? It is for +EV if either of the blinds call along with UTG+2, and it may earn him a free card on the turn.

I'm not sure I like the PF raise in hand 2 - your hand is typically looking to hit a straight or flush to win, and you were potentially going to knock out both blinds and the CO. I think you want to see a flop before putting more money in, and when you do hit something, you want more people calling. You've got 2 overs and backdoor flush draw on the flop, but I'm not sure that's enough to warrant a call here. You definitely should be just calling on the turn hoping for one of your outs.

EDIT: Raise, not 3-bet.

[MoreWineII]

I think I would have raised the flop in hand one.

And just called the turn in hand two.

[TheRake]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I like the PF raise in hand 2

[/ QUOTE ]

Bill,
I raised because of CO posting 1.5SB. There was a chance I could narrow the field and have alot of dead money in the pot. If they call it is fine also since my hand plays well multi-way. This seems standard...anyone disagree?

TheRake

[sthief09]

Hand 1: would you have taken the free showdown unimproved?
Hand 2: I don't love the PF raise.


I think these are two really, really good turn raises, that most people wouldn't make. I'll give my reasons for this when I get home. I just wanted to post that those are really good plays, since the responses so far haven't been in favor of them.

[TheRake]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: would you have taken the free showdown unimproved?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but both hands had a ton of outs to improve so I felt the turn raises were justified. My concern with hand 1 was that the pot was to small to make this play.

TheRake

[Lost Wages]

Hand 1)
Raise the flop.

Hand 2)
I don't like the turn raise. There is 4 to a straight on the board making it too likely that you will be reraised.

Lost Wages

[lil']

Hand 1 - Most raise the flop with a pair and flush draw, but you raised the turn. If your opponent has a king, he probably won't fold it. The difference is in the river card. You can win an extra bet if you improve (because you bet again if you hit, like you did), and you just check if you miss.

Hand 2 - I don't have an opinion about the pre-flop raise.

The turn raise is good because you may win the pot right there, and if not, you have numerous outs to improve.

[lil']

There is 4 to a straight on the board making it too likely that you will be reraised.
True, but none of the other players have shown an interest in the pot. The only one that is concnerning is the guy betting the turn. However, the pot is pretty big, and he might be able to get a pair to fold here. If he is only called, he's probably got a lot of outs to improve.

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey Rake,

In Hand 1, I don't like your turn raise. Calling down is superior to taking the free SD. You're not getting a better hand to fold, so there's no semi-bluff value. Call the turn.

In Hand 2, your preflop raise is fine or not fine depending on the limpers. If the pot was smaller, i.e. you hadn't raise preflop, I would fold the flop here. Since it's not, I would raise. Your turn raise is fine. If the river's a blank or an overcard, what's your play?

GoT

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]

In Hand 1, I don't like your turn raise. Calling down is superior to taking the free SD. You're not getting a better hand to fold, so there's no semi-bluff value. Call the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

with all those outs and a chance that he might be ahead, doesn't the raise for free showdown benefit him, since he gains an extra BB when he connects on the river. I think he'll river the best hand more often than his opponent will 3-bet (and subsequently lose 1 BB because he'll fold the river, or gain 2 BB when he hits his flush or 1 BB when he hits trips or 2 pair, assuming he doesn't raise the river).

[TheRake]

[ QUOTE ]
If the river's a blank or an overcard, what's your play?

[/ QUOTE ]

GoT,

My intention was to check the river unimproved on both hands.

TheRake

[TheRake]

If anyone is interested Hand 1 UTG+2 had AT/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hand 2 MP2 had 55 for a flopped set.

I'de like a few more comments if anyone has something to add.

Thanks,
TheRake