Am I being TOO tight?

[Vollycat]

Losing a hand never really bothers me but this one...
I'm UTH+1 with QQ and UTG has already bet. I call and 2 other calling stations come along too.
Flop is 99J
UTG bets, I raise, one of the calling stations folds, and one calls. UTG calls.
Turn blank
UTG checks, I bet, they both call.
River A-- Final board is 99JxA
UTG bets, I call, calling station re-raises, UTG calls. I contemplate and follow my weak tight nature and fold. They both show Jx and split the pot with JJ99.
Am I wrong here? I'm trying to save a big bet. These players do not seem very strong (however I feel I have a lot to learn too) and have chased stuff all night long. I'm trying to clean my game up and break a bad habit of holding onto a strong starting hand for too long and wasting money when I know the board doesn't favor my cards. Here I got 'burned' by it. Thoughts?

[mike_sharpe]

Why no preflop raise?

[Vollycat]

Yeah, I should have punished them for even seeing the flop, but in early position I was being conservative. I had just got hurt so many times earlier in the night by people with nothing and then hitting on the board and my good cards losing again.

[TxSteve]

You have to raise preflop here...the hand would have probably played out quite differently...

but since you didn't...when the raise comes back to you on the river, there are approximately 13 big bets in the pot (i think).

do you think 1 time out of 13 that your hand will be good? if so, the odds are too good to fold, i think

[mike_sharpe]

Easier said thn done, but you need to play each hand for what it is, not for what might have happened in the past.

[CORed]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm UTH+1 with QQ and UTG has already bet. I call and 2 other calling stations come along too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure whether UTG limped or raised from this, but in any case, with QQ, raise. You might get the people behind you to fold, and if not, you are getting more money in the pot with very likely the best hand.

Flop and turn play are fine.

On the river, you've got to call. If it was raised preflop, you're getting 16:1 on your call. If it wasn't, you're getting 14:1. You don't have to show down the winner very often to make money here. Yes, the ace is scary and some folks with trips will wait till the river to raise (though raising the turn is much more common), but the pot odds make a call correct, and it's not even close. If it was two bets cold on the river, folding might be reasonable, depending on your opponents. If you keep folding in this situation, your opponents will keep taking shots at you on the river, and they will be right to do so.

[davidross]

Of all the hands in the poker universe, QQ is the one hand I would never limp with. AA and KK I have done it with, hoping to get a re-raise in, but QQ is just too vulnerable. If some joker is going to play A rag or K rag, at least make him pay for th eshot at out-drawing you.

THe river call is trickier. I make these bad laydowns a fair bit too, but enough to make it a money loser? I don't know. Successful players will fold a winner far more often than bad players, it goes with the territiory. But on this hand, your weak play previously led your opponenets to bet with confidence on the river. THey think the Ace has solved their kicker problems, after all if you had AJ or QQ or KK you would have raised pre-flop.

I was the prototypical "weak-tight" player for the longest time. And you can beat games up to 3/6 playing that way, but if you want to beat bigger games or maximize your win rate at the lower limits, you must increase your aggressiveness. QQ has to be an automatic raise, 3-bet, 4 bet, whatever you can. It makes every subsequent street easier to play because you can make more assumptions about your opponents hands.

Good luck.

[Vollycat]

Great advice guys. Thanks so much. And you're right, I think I was 'sort of' limping along with the QQ (which you're advice makes perfect sense) and hoping no over cards come.
I've been so concerned with the tightness of my game, I guess I've forgotten that the weakness is where I've actually been losing me the REAL money. Thanks again!

[peacemaker]

[ QUOTE ]
Losing a hand never really bothers me but this one...
I'm UTH+1 with QQ and UTG has already bet. I call and 2 other calling stations come along too.
Flop is 99J
UTG bets, I raise, one of the calling stations folds, and one calls. UTG calls.
Turn blank
UTG checks, I bet, they both call.
River A-- Final board is 99JxA
UTG bets, I call, calling station re-raises, UTG calls. I contemplate and follow my weak tight nature and fold. They both show Jx and split the pot with JJ99.
Am I wrong here? I'm trying to save a big bet. These players do not seem very strong (however I feel I have a lot to learn too) and have chased stuff all night long. I'm trying to clean my game up and break a bad habit of holding onto a strong starting hand for too long and wasting money when I know the board doesn't favor my cards. Here I got 'burned' by it. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I missing something? You said that they won with Jacks and nines but with your QQ in the hole and 99 on the board you should have won with Queens and nines.

[mike_sharpe]

He folded on the river bet.

[peacemaker]

DOH!!! I see it now. I saw his first call on the river and missed his later fold. I guess I'm too sober. /images/graemlins/smile.gif