I think I like how I played this...

[sfer]

but it's different enough from my SOP that I'd like some opinions.

Live 3/6. An uncharacteristically bad table. About 2 hands per orbit are preflop raises that take down the blinds. Few pots are more than 3 handed. This is one of them, however.

UTG limps. UTG+1 who plays badly postflop (stop n' go man--Josh has characterized him as "Me have hand, me bet") limps. Decent postflop but too loose preflop limps MP. Calling station limps in the CO. I raise on the button with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/spade.gif. RustedCorpse in the SB folds, weak-tight old lady calls in the BB, all call.

6 to the flop for 12 SBs. Flop is A /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Checked to me, I bet, we lose UTG but the rest call.

5 to the turn for 8.5 BBs. Turn is J /images/graemlins/club.gif [A /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif]. Checked to me and I check through.

5 to the river for 8.5 BBs. River is a total blank. Checked to me and I check.

[MAxx]

That's how I would have played it. Cheap showdown sounds good to me with that unfavorible looking board. I guess some worse hands may have called a river bet at the table you describe, but I do not see a lot of value in it. I would prefer the cheap showdown here eventhough it feels a little weak.

[Garbonzo]

[ QUOTE ]
but it's different enough from my SOP that I'd like some opinions.

Live 3/6. An uncharacteristically bad table. About 2 hands per orbit are preflop raises that take down the blinds. Few pots are more than 3 handed. This is one of them, however.

UTG limps. UTG+1 who plays badly postflop (stop n' go man--Josh has characterized him as "Me have hand, me bet") limps. Decent postflop but too loose preflop limps MP. Calling station limps in the CO. I raise on the button with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/spade.gif. RustedCorpse in the SB folds, weak-tight old lady calls in the BB, all call.

6 to the flop for 12 SBs. Flop is A /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Checked to me, I bet, we lose UTG but the rest call.

5 to the turn for 8.5 BBs. Turn is J /images/graemlins/club.gif [A /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif]. Checked to me and I check through.

5 to the river for 8.5 BBs. River is a total blank. Checked to me and I check.

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet the river, looks like a value bet to me, especially after it checks through twice.

[MoreWineII]

Cheap showdown sounds good here. With a board like that, not a bad time to vary up your play.

[Lost Wages]

Since you would have to call a river bet after checking the turn and since you can safely fold to a turn checkraise, go ahead and bet the turn. Otherwise, you might as well start checking on the flop.

Lost Wages

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Since you would have to call a river bet after checking the turn and since you can safely fold to a turn checkraise, go ahead and bet the turn. Otherwise, you might as well start checking on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this advice.

[MarkD]

This is how I see it too. Bet the turn and check the river. Give them one more chance to fold their hands. Some guy may even fold an ace when the flush comes, "knowing" that you can't bet there without a flush.

[Garbonzo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since you would have to call a river bet after checking the turn and since you can safely fold to a turn checkraise, go ahead and bet the turn. Otherwise, you might as well start checking on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, this looks like it makes good sense.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet the river, looks like a value bet to me, especially after it checks through twice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't it reasonable to think that an Ace checks through the river fearing a flush?

[Garbonzo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I bet the river, looks like a value bet to me, especially after it checks through twice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't it reasonable to think that an Ace checks through the river fearing a flush?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, not an A in my hand. Once it checked through the turn, and then checks through to you on the river, I don't fear an A, and if they have one, they call, they aren't likely to raise...and I they scoop, won't be the first time.

What is your line if you are bet into on the turn? Which I might do with no A and no clubs....

When you check through the turn, I believe it lends to your opponents calling down the river with weaker hands...lower PP's and J's.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
This is how I see it too. Bet the turn and check the river. Give them one more chance to fold their hands. Some guy may even fold an ace when the flush comes, "knowing" that you can't bet there without a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry I didn't make this clear. UTG+1 and CO will never fold an Ace under any circumstances. UTG+1 doesn't have an Ace; he would have bet the flop if he did.

I had no intention of calling a bet on the river.

[Garbonzo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is how I see it too. Bet the turn and check the river. Give them one more chance to fold their hands. Some guy may even fold an ace when the flush comes, "knowing" that you can't bet there without a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry I didn't make this clear. UTG+1 and CO will never fold an Ace under any circumstances. UTG+1 doesn't have an Ace; he would have bet the flop if he did.

I had no intention of calling a bet on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

You said the game was bad bad bad, no? Two players next to each other, calling Ax for two bets, then leading the flop with any A doesn't sound so bad??

Maybe I misunderstood something.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Since you would have to call a river bet after checking the turn ...

[/ QUOTE ]

I would agree heads-up or 3 ways but the field is huge. I'm not concerned about getting bluffed when the pot is that protected.

[sfer]

The table was bad. This hand was odd.

[MarkD]

I don't know why, but I didn't realize you had 5 opponents on the turn still. I like your check much better. For some reason I was picturing 2-3 oppnents on the turn and then I like betting.

[Garbonzo]

[ QUOTE ]
The table was bad. This hand was odd.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mean to belabor the point, but I don't understand with these descriptions how the table was "bad", weak tight, any A etc. etc., you mean just this hand they will call with any A?

You wrote:

UTG limps. UTG+1 who plays badly postflop (stop n' go man--Josh has characterized him as "Me have hand, me bet") limps. Decent postflop but too loose preflop limps MP. Calling station limps in the CO. I raise on the button with K K . RustedCorpse in the SB folds, weak-tight old lady calls in the BB, all call.

We have

1. Calling station
2. Weak tight
3. Any A
4. Any A and bets any flop with A

Looks kinda ncie to me, and now I'm hella confused.

What do you do if bet into on the turn?

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't mean to belabor the point, but I don't understand with these descriptions how the table was "bad", weak tight, any A etc. etc., you mean just this hand they will call with any A?

[/ QUOTE ]

The table was bad in this way:

[ QUOTE ]
An uncharacteristically bad table. About 2 hands per orbit are preflop raises that take down the blinds. Few pots are more than 3 handed. This is one of them, however.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ever sit at a great table that for some reason goes tight for 2 hands? This hand was kind of like that.

If the old lady bet the turn I fold. If UTG+1 bet the flop or turn I fold.

[MarkD]

I'm confused too. Everyone has just checked checked checked and with these descriptions I would have expected someone to bet an ace somehwere in there.

I don't think I hate the turn check by itself anymore, but turn check + river check doesn't seem right. I want to put in 1 BB somewhere on those two streets with 5 opponents.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I hate the turn check by itself anymore, but turn check + river check doesn't seem right. I want to put in 1 BB somewhere on those two streets with 5 opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know this feeling well. That's why I posted this hand. I don't think tossing in another bet is worthwhile though. Let's say I raised the button with KQs and the final board was AKxxx with a flush and the hand played the same. Do you still want to bet the river?

[MoreWineII]

With five players in the pot, at least one of them a calling station, I just don't see what a bet does for you here.

[MarkD]

Yah, I think this would be an easier bet as now it's more likley you will get called by a weak king.

[Garbonzo]

I must say, I'm totally lost. The descriptions don't make sense to me.

However, based on what I understand, I still check the turn and bet the river.

Or, I like Lostwages bet the turn and fold to a reraise idea...

[lil']

I agree with Lost Wages here.

Bet the turn, if you are raised you have an easy fold.

What I want to know is, would you have bet the turn if it didn't put three clubs on the board? Because I don't think the suit of the turn card really matters here judging by the action so far.

[Lost Wages]

Are you saying that you would fold for one bet on the river? Who said anything about a bluff? With the total lack of strength shown post flop, someone may decide that their pocket nines is the best hand (or they might get a better hand to fold /images/graemlins/wink.gif).

The pot is large and you have a mediocre hand. That's not the time to try and save one bet or give a free card.

Lost Wages

[Rico Suave]

Sfer:

I thought about this one a bit, and read some of the replies. I think I would have played it like Lost Wages suggests, but I think had I done so, I would have lost 1 more bb than you.

Your flop bet was called in 4 spots on a A high two tone board. The turn brings in the flush draw, I think putting in more bets is probably a losing proposition. Fewer players....I bet the turn, but 4 callers on the flop, yuk.

--Rico

[Garbonzo]

No one likes betting the river?

[chesspain]

sfer,

You would seem to have an easy bet on the river. They appear to be mostly weak, calling station types. Obviously, no one has a flush. Are you suggesting that among this crew anyone with an ace will check it through twice, and that no one without an ace will fold the river? Bah!

P.S. I'm typing this from a B&B overlooking the bay in Homer, Alaska, with ice covered mountains in the distance. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

P.S.S. On my way through Detroit airport, I spotted the real Ron Jeremy! /images/graemlins/shocked.gif More on that encounter during the trip report I post after my stay in Seattle.

[MarkD]

I think lots do. I do.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
P.S. I'm typing this from a B&B overlooking the bay in Homer, Alaska, with ice covered mountains in the distance.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm typing this from a dreary, rain-sodden, high-rise office in New York with the air conditioning on so strong that I can almost see my own breath. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
What I want to know is, would you have bet the turn if it didn't put three clubs on the board? Because I don't think the suit of the turn card really matters here judging by the action so far.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have bet almost any turn card if I lost two callers on the flop.

EDIT: Should read "if I lost two more callers on the flop."

[lil']

I would have bet almost any turn card if I lost two callers on the flop.
So you were more worried about an ace, then.

If I was going to pick a street to check, I'd rather check the river than the turn, because I don't want some wacky draw sucking out on me for free.

If you bet the turn and are still called in six places, then I might consider checking the river. At least this way you aren't giving anyone a free shot at you.

[sfer]

Everyone has some ragged-ass piece of the flop but the CO tables A7o and drags the pot. With fewer players I'm in total agreement with LW that betting the turn with the intention of folding to a checkraise or checking the river unimproved is right. In a LL live game where the players are not totally brain dead, I still think betting a big pair into half the table with an Ace high board isn't going to make money long term.