Kx BB Early

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

'Stars $30 + 3 2-Table SNG

1st level, 5th hand, no reads. Blinds are 10/20, I have my starting stack of 1500 before posting in the BB. I get K /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

MP1 & button limp, SB folds, I check. 3 see the flop with 70 in the pot.

Flop: K /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I bet 60, only MP1 calls. Heads-up to the turn, 190 in the pot.

Turn: 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I bet 100, MP1 raises to 200, I call. (590)

River: 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I check, MP1 bets 955 all-in.

Your move? Comments on all streets appreciated. Results later.

[patrick dicaprio]

usually the small raise on the turn means a hand that can beat top pair. you are getting 4-1 on your call of the reraise so it is tempting but I think there is a good chance you are well beaten here. on the river it is tough. i would tend to fold here but it is easy for me to say that now when not in the heat of battle.

Pat

[Hood]

Here's how I would have played it:

PF: Check, natch.

Flop: I'm currently in two minds with these situations. I generally play rather weak-tight when I get a free play and hit top-pair weak kicker early on. With only 3 players, however, I may have a stab at it with a full pot bet of 70.

Turn: Check/fold. I see no hand that I could beat, and I don't even know if my 5 is an out. He called on the flop and there were no draws around (other than TQ), so I've got to put him on a king.

River: This is tricky. When you called on the turn, what were you looking for? You hit one of your 3 cards that you wanted (is it right to assume the kings aren't outs?), so surely now you've got to call here (preferably bet out instead of checking) - otherwise there wouldn't have been any point in throwing in another 100 on the turn.

[soxfan70]

After he calls the flop bet, I might have gone check-call on the turn, obviously worried about the kicker. When the 5 hits the river, now you're in a tough spot. What K could could he have limped with from MP? You would think he would have raised preflop with AK, KK, or JJ. It's quite possible that he limped with KQ, KJ, or K8. So in my mind there are only a few hands you are behind to, I think i call here and hope to see KQ. This is a tough decision though.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Turn: Check/fold. I see no hand that I could beat

I see an awful lot of people who call the flop with middle pair. I tend to discount a K in the hand of a limper in an unraised pot, especially when my bet from the blind is just called on the flop. Thus, I bet a little more than half the pot on the turn, giving him the chance to fold his unimproved middle pair or decloak and force me out with a big raise. I'm suspicious of the minraise here, but I don't see him as having KJ, thinking that if he called the flop and it's unlikely I have a draw, he'd probably string me along. My plan was to check the river and call a small bet if I don't improve trying to pick off a bluff.

[Jason Strasser]

Kurn, tough hand. I don't know how the play is generally during these 2-table SNGs on stars, I'll tell you how I'd play it in my game.

I'd definitely check the flop. This is one of those spots where I just can not stand getting called on the flop, if I lead. I feel like I get no information from a passive player, who would be content calling me down with his K9s or whatever.

So I'd check. If a solid player bet from any position, I'd fold. If there is a suspicious bet, maybe a button autobet, I'd check-raise. I feel this flop line gives me the most information about what my opponents hold. If my check raised gets cold called by someone who checked the flop, I can almost guarantee a set or a flush draw (weak).

Generally if I get called on the flop if I check raise, I'd end up check/folding the turn if I don't improve. It's just not worth it for me to get involved in these types of hands with TPNK. If the flop checked around, I'd bet slightly more than the pot if an ace didn't come on the turn. This is where I find I get called down a lot by someone with middle pair. Generally, top pair bets the flop. If it checks through, and a non threatening card comes, it is very common that a holder of middle pair (or worse) will assume he/she has the best hand. So again, if it checked around I'd bet slightly more than the pot on the turn, and value bet the river if no scare card came.

Your line is tricky, because I feel like you didn't do as much as you could've to get information from the people acting behind you. From my experience with mini-raises on a non-flush board with only one concievable straight draw that would call the flop bet (QT), screams set or two pair. More likely, it's a set. And while you rivered the two pair, I think that card is a bad card for you. Judging by the typical opponents I play with and their mini-raising standards, this is a fold. In your case, I wouldn't even call the mini-raise, as I would truly feel like I was drawing dead at this point. I would really not be surprised if you were dead on the turn.

Then again, this is all a big guessing game with a mediocre hand. I think it could've been played in a manner where this decision wouldn't have been so hard to make.

[BradleyT]

Call me weak but hands like this are OK if you can get to a showdown cheap - but I'm not going to risk my stack or half a stack on K5o. Especially when it's so early in the tournament, why get married to this cheese?

I put him on 33 or a horribly played AA.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Good thoughts overall on the hand. I usually check in the BB with this type hand if there are more opponents. This time I tried to take it down with a bet, but I like your c/r idea. I think it was a mistake on my part to bet out on the flop and then try to turn my hand into a bluff-catcher.

More likely, it's a set. And while you rivered the two pair, I think that card is a bad card for you. Judging by the typical opponents I play with and their mini-raising standards, this is a fold. In your case, I wouldn't even call the mini-raise, as I would truly feel like I was drawing dead at this point. I would really not be surprised if you were dead on the turn.


Interesting. This makes a lot of sense until he bets all-in on the river. True, if he's going to bet the pot, he might as well bet all-in, but if he has a set, why make it easier for me to fold?

[PrayingMantis]

Hi Kurn,

Others have said enough, so I'd like simply to comment about one thing you say:

[ QUOTE ]
I tend to discount a K in the hand of a limper in an unraised pot, especially when my bet from the blind is just called on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I must say I don't agree with you on this one. People are very often limping with all sorts of K's: K9-KQ. I see it all the time. And calling your bet on the flop, is exactly what a KT limper will often do in such a spot, as he's not too sure of his kicker. That's why I prefer, in most cases, checking the flop and see how it developes. I'm very ready to lay down this hand, because I have no intention to play guessing games with TP no-kicker in an unraised pot.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Good point

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I was feeling very unconfident on the river even after hitting my 2 pair, realizing that a set was possible. But then he bet all-in and one word went through my head.

Why?

I had called his minraise on the turn, and if we reverse places and I think my set is good, why not bet 300-400? I can't get the word *why* out of my head so I call.

My opponent shows A /images/graemlins/spade.gif A /images/graemlins/club.gif and earns a place in the book "1001 Ways to Screw Yourself With Pocket Aces."

I think I put myself in a very tough position in this hand and got bailed out by an opponent who played his hand worse. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Jason Strasser]

The all-in on the river is puzzling, and it *could* be a bluff or a missed QT or whatever, but not enough to make calling +EV IMO. You see, I'd never flat call and min raise the turn with ANY hand, thats not how I play, and that's not how I think a good player should play any hand on this board. So I can't think alongside this player. His line is awkward, he obviously is not a top notch player.

You cant really justify his actions with any hands. If he had a set, a flat call on the flop is an average play (one I would probably make with middle set), but why would you all-in on the river? If he had a draw (QT namely), well the raise on the turn isn't quite big enough to be considered a good semi-bluff IMO, and the all-in on the river is quite risky. I would also tend to raise the flop not the turn with QT here, although its a tricky play on the turn. If he had top two pair, again, why all-in on the river?

Bad players make moves you can't justify. What you have to fall back on is the zillions of hands you've played before.
Flat call on flop + min raise on turn + average opponet = good hand.

Your hand is not good enough to call this bet.

[Jason Strasser]

Indeed.

I want to say nice call, but I really don't think it was barring some sort of read. I guess the river all-in was what you went on, and maybe if you had really really good reading skills you could put him on AA. But again I go back to my previous post--its hard to put bad players on hands with any type of precision.

This, as a previous poster pointed out, was really the only logical hand that could be messed up this bad that you were ahead.

Goot hand, I like hands like this.