20-40 at the TAJ

[RollaJ]

Loose EP raises, folded to DV (thats me) in CO-1 I reraise KK, Relatively Solid Player calls in SB, BB folds, EP calls

Flop

Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif


SP bets $20, EP calls, I raise , Both call

Turn 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Both check to me I bet $40, they both call.

River Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif SP bets $40, EP folds ........now what?


Results in white:

<font color="white"> Well I was sure I just got rivered and I wanted to fold so badly, but I just kept looking at all those chips in the middle. In the end I made the crying call and he of course showed ...TT. I told him how great a bet it was 2-3 times, Ive never come so close to laying down and ending up calling, I was stoked! </font>

[nopepper]

Why call the river bet? If you think you have the hand won..raise...if you think your beat, fold. IMO calling this bet isnt +EV

[RollaJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Why call the river bet? If you think you have the hand won..raise...if you think your beat, fold. IMO calling this bet isnt +EV

[/ QUOTE ]
WOW............nuff said

[Dante]

[ QUOTE ]
Why call the river bet? If you think you have the hand won..raise...if you think your beat, fold. IMO calling this bet isnt +EV

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising is terrible here....hands that you beat (i.e. TT, JJ, etc) probably won't call and hands that beat you will probably 3-bet (or at worst just call). So when you win, you will generally just win the original river bet and when you lose, you'll lose 3bets (or 2 bets if you plan on folding to a 3bet).

[nopepper]

Dante,

If your playing thinking your beat why call a river bet in the first place. He should just fold then.

[Daggs911]

With roughly $360 in that pot, I think its an easy call. If SP had a Q, you would probably have gotten more action on the flop. You're often beat, but JJ or TT are enough of a possibility to make a call worthwhile, IMO.

_M_

[Daggs911]

"If your playing thinking your beat why call a river bet in the first place. He should just fold then. "

Is this for real?

_M_

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
If your playing thinking your beat why call a river bet in the first place. He should just fold then.

[/ QUOTE ]
Because there is like $400 in the pot and it costs $40 to call. He may be 90% sure he's beat and a call would be correct. I don't understand why you would consider raising this. Do you think a worse hand will call? Do you think a better hand will fold? I don't see either happening.

Personally I think this is a good and fairly easy call on the river (with the nice pot size) although I wouldn't feel too great about winning.

[The Bear]

Getting 12-1, this is an easy call.

Edited to read 12-1 instead of 13-1. Not that it matters.

[nopepper]

I think it is fairly likely that caller is playing mid pp here given the betting patterns. Any q would have brought a raise by the turn for sure...a 5 would also be raised by the turn. Therefore, given this info pp or AK are the only likely hands..rasieing this hand on the river will pay you off in both instances.

[Dante]

[ QUOTE ]
Dante,

If your playing thinking your beat why call a river bet in the first place. He should just fold then.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say I was beat. I said that the hands you WANT to raise (i.e. TT JJ, lower pairs, etc) 95% of the time won't call your raise. The only hands that will call are hands that beat you (AA, crappy queen, good queen weak player/weak queen) and any re-raise is either trips or full house or an OUTSTANDING read.

So again, to re-phrase, when you raise this, 95% of the time you won't get paid off by hands that you beat and you'll get raised by hands that beat you...or get pushed off your hand if you won't fold to a re-raise. So tell me where the benefit is in raising? I'm assuming the $20-$40 players at the Taj are competent enough to not call a raise with less than a Q here, maybe AA or KK.

[Dante]

Why in God's name would they actually pay off your river raise? What do they put you on, AJ?

[RollaJ]

I really thought WOW was enough, but you really ought to play more or read more or most likely both. There was ZERO chance I would raise there (unless I saw his cards). It was call or fold.

Unfortunately I put the results in white, next time I will hold off a few hours as many people thought this was a simple call, perhaps it may be based on pot odds, but I personally was "crying" as I tossed in the $40

[Dante]

I think calling or folding is player dependent...there are some TOM (tight old men)/weak tighties that I can bet out and KNOW that they will fold without a Queen. Against a typical unknown player, I would call, expecting to lose, but not losing 11/12 times, so I would call.

[astroglide]

based on the way the guy played the hand, i would strongly suspect he would call a river raise (and so would most people)

[nopepper]

I have not played the 20-40 game at the taj so maybe im out of line here...based on play at most of my 10-20 tables...i will get a call with pp or and ace for one more bet.

again i appologize for posting out of my realm here

[RollaJ]

[ QUOTE ]
based on the way the guy played the hand, i would strongly suspect he would call a river raise (and so would most people)

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying you would raise here? I think thats nuts!
He calls pf, aggressive on Q high flop, gets passive when raised, calls turn bet and then comes to life when the Q hits..... I think the chances He will call with a worse hand relative to the times I get 3 bet favor a simple call down

[astroglide]

i'm responding to back up nopepper. if you had raised, i'm sure this guy would have called, and it would have been the correct play based on what he held but whether or not it's correct in general depends on how often he'd play a hand other than a queen like this.

[1800GAMBLER]

Order Theory of Poker.

re: hand. I wait for the turn to raise.

[nopepper]

astro..thanks for the back up..i have been getting killed out here

[RollaJ]

[ QUOTE ]
re: hand. I wait for the turn to raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is always an option, but 3-way Id rather not F around with a vulnerable hand, especially after there is already a nice pot out there (5BB). I just play it straight forward and get paid off.

[Michael Davis]

DV,

I've folded here before, but calling should definitely be the default play.

I think this was a great bet by your opponent if he knew you wouldn't raise without a Q.

-Michael

[Michael Davis]

Yeah, but you don't change the vulnerability of your hand at all by raising on the flop. These other two are almost certain to call your flop raise having already paid one bet, so you do make more if you wait for the turn to raise.

-Michael

[Jeffage]

Easy call with that much in the pot.

Jeff

[3rdCheckRaise]

ok here is a bit easier way to play that hand or maybe not but i'd play it my way anyway...call the flop bet ...raise the turn no mater what (well ace may be an exception but...) and at will bet or check down the river...I do not think that anybody would put a play on you if you raise the turn...As far as paying on off on the river with your hand you just have to no question about it .

[WhipMeBeatMe]

You can't fold here because a fold would get a lot of attention. You were the aggressor preflop and on each subsequent round PLUS you are last to act. It's your job to call this one down. If you folded here, I would be sure to take shots at you later on. In future hands, I'd be more inclined to call you with thin draws with the intention of betting out on the river if I miss.

There is also a small chance that he is making a play with ace-high or a pocket pair. Either way, it is a good bet on his part.

[WhipMeBeatMe]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it is fairly likely that caller is playing mid pp here given the betting patterns. Any q would have brought a raise by the turn for sure...a 5 would also be raised by the turn. Therefore, given this info pp or AK are the only likely hands..rasieing this hand on the river will pay you off in both instances.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO, you should re-examine your aggressive tendencies.

If the player is an average player, I highly suspect this guy to have a queen. Given that he did not 3-bet preflop, I'd guess that it was a weak queen. Most people do not automatically check-raise turns with top pair weak kicker. It's usually a better play to check and call. Against all but the most predictable calling stations, this limits your losses when you are beat and maximizes your win when you are good. Think about the possible hands and the likely action and you'll see what I mean.

If the player is a tough player, I'd be less likely to think he had a queen because I'd expect a check-raise or 3-bet from him on the flop. This is the standard response to a late position preflop aggressor when you flop top pair and there is a third person in the hand.

Raising on the river here is a rookie mistake unless you have a great tell on him.

[WhipMeBeatMe]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm responding to back up nopepper. if you had raised, i'm sure this guy would have called, and it would have been the correct play based on what he held but whether or not it's correct in general depends on how often he'd play a hand other than a queen like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

More likely, the original bettor folds or he re-raises. The ONLY way I can see that a raise would result in a desireable call is if the HERO had a maniac table image.

There is one more possibility for a call given this board. The SB has a hand like A5 or 45s. This would explain why he bet out the flop instead of check-raising. Given that no flush is possible by the turn, some people may be tempted to slowplay with trip 5s or a full-house one more round to get a call from the Big Blind. That's because a check-raise from the SB is going to scream trip 5s and it's highly likely that the BB and the Hero will fold. He doesn't worry too much about giving free cards because his opponents are most likely drawing to 2 outs. (with the exception of 67 which would give someone an open-ended draw).

[RollaJ]

Ok a number of people have suggested smooth call on the flop, and pop the turn. It is of course a viable option and I can say this. Heads up that would be my default play 80% of the time, 3 ways or more I will raise the flop 80% of the time. I do not know if one is right or wrong, but I suppose there is not a big difference either way. If there was a big draw out there I might wait for the turn to charge twice as much (unless its someone Ive seen 3 bet their draws on the flop).

As for the river I am surprised there are people that think a raise is right. It seems so wrong. Id love to make a poll but the site isnt giving me the option

[astroglide]

More likely, the original bettor folds or he re-raises

in general, that is wrong in today's games. in this particular example, it is especially wrong - just look at how he played the hand. he would have called.

again, i'm only saying that raising is correct according to FTOP on this particular hand. whether or not it's correct in general against him based on how he played the hand "depends".