QJo on the button 15-30 @ bellagio

[Tyler Durden]

Pretty good game on Sunday evening.

Three limpers to me on the button and I limp w/ Q/images/graemlins/spade.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. It's six way action.

Flop comes J-J-5, two/images/graemlins/spade.gif. Checked to the player right before me who is an Asian lady and she bets. She hasn't been at the table long but seems to be kinda tight preflop.
I raise it up. Folded to her and she calls. Heads up.

Turn is the 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif. She checks and calls.

River is the 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif. She checks.

I discussed this hand with some very good players and one said I should check behind but only if I can fold to a checkraise. Others say I should bet and call a checkraise. Nobody said be happy when she checks and calls and my hand is good b/c that's too easy.

So the question is:

Do you bet the river?
If so, do you fold to a checkraise?
Do you call a checkraise?

Thanks very much.

[MrGo]

If you're going to fold to a check-raise, I don't see the point in betting, other than hoping she calls with a weaker spade. If you're afraid of the C/R, just check behind her.

If you plan on calling a C/R, then bet.

[PokerHund]

[ QUOTE ]
Pretty good game on Sunday evening.

Three limpers to me on the button and I limp w/ Q/images/graemlins/spade.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. It's six way action.


[/ QUOTE ]

Now i know why this game was good !

[Clarkmeister]

Why on earth would you raise the flop?

[magic_man]

I agree. I would definitely wait till the turn to pop it here. That aside, my most likely course of action on the river would be to bet and call a checkraise. She has to be afraid that you will check behind on this scary board, so the chance of a checkraise is very small. The number of bets you make on the many many times that you bet and are called holding the best hand, along with the (possibly very) small number of times you bet and pick off a checkraise bluff more than offsets the number of times you pay off the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif, IMO. (Note that I doubt the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif will CR here). Betting and folding to a checkraise, which I hate but sometimes (rarely) do, might be necessary if you have more information on the player.

~Magic_Man

[Don Olney]

River is the 7. She checks.

first, if she checks and you check --- where is the check/raise comming from -- did I miss read something.

To me this is a clear check/check
Be happy.

[DcifrThs]

tyler,

in situations like these i like to actually play a little differently (kinda like the 55 hand from 6/12 if you remember it where you knew exactly what i had by the river based on my play). i like to call the flop here. you gain a few things from this play:

1) if a spade falls you have redraws against small flushes,

2) if a spade doesn't fall you have an opportunity to extract much more from your good holding by raising the turn.

3) you don't cut off your action with the likely best hand (overcards are not an issue...in fact you WELCOME overcards as that might give somebody something with which to call.)

i think i may be missing a reason or two off the top here but you get my drift...if you raise the flop, what have you accomplished? basically you've accomplished a goal that is the exact opposite of the one you should be striving to achieve.

on the turn your play was optimal, obviously.

and now the river.

bottom line, this hand is seeing a showdown b/c i DONT KNOW if i can or cannot fold to a checkraise. the reason that is so is because of how i've played the hand...raised the flop (which makes it look like i have jacks up...maybe jacks over eights or sevens) bet the turn (likely looking like protection bets), and now am faced with a 4flush on the river.

to her, it doesn't look like i could have that high of a flush so she'll likely pay you off with very little in terms of spades. if she checkraises it could be with a lower spade than your queen to get you to fold it, or it could be the k or a so you cannot fold to a checkraise. but theres so much value in betting, PLUS the times she checkraises and you still win, MINUS those times she checkraises and you lose that you simply have to bet, imo.

bet and call a c-r. if i'm wrong i'd love to learn why and i'm sure it has something to do with my above assumptions of value...

ni han.
-Barron

[magic_man]

[ QUOTE ]
but theres so much value in betting, PLUS the times she checkraises and you still win, MINUS those times she checkraises and you lose that you simply have to bet, imo.


[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't have said it better myself, but I tried. Poser /images/graemlins/cool.gif.

~Magic_Man

[astroglide]

i would not have raised the flop

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but theres so much value in betting, PLUS the times she checkraises and you still win, MINUS those times she checkraises and you lose that you simply have to bet, imo.


[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't have said it better myself, but I tried. Poser /images/graemlins/cool.gif.

~Magic_Man

[/ QUOTE ]

i dunno about you mr. magic_man, but i usually (unless i have some compelling reason not to) read the poster's post and reply w/o reading everybody else's response...i then go through and read and reply. i don't think i'm CLOSE to alone in this regard and at times there can be a few people saying the same thing...other times you get widely varied disagreement...

nothing is more inefficient than 5people in a room trying to write a sentance.

-Barron

[Ed S.]

[ QUOTE ]
So the question is:

Do you bet the river?
If so, do you fold to a checkraise?
Do you call a checkraise?


[/ QUOTE ]


You check behind. If she has K or Ace of spades why lose more money on it. You have the Queen. I highly doubt if you bet she will be folding the King of spades. So I would just check behind and see what she is calling with the whole way. You may even win the pot.


Ed S.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So the question is:

Do you bet the river?
If so, do you fold to a checkraise?
Do you call a checkraise?


[/ QUOTE ]


You check behind. If she has K or Ace of spades why lose more money on it. You have the Queen. I highly doubt if you bet she will be folding the King of spades. So I would just check behind and see what she is calling with the whole way. You may even win the pot.


Ed S.

[/ QUOTE ]

this advice leaves so many bets on the table in the long run that you may as well just rack up and leave now...she will call with MANY MANY hands here that you don't think YOU'D call with...but its not you...its the asian lady there at the table.

i really think tyler has a river bet and a call of any checkraise.

-Barron

[Ed S.]

[ QUOTE ]
this advice leaves so many bets on the table in the long run that you may as well just rack up and leave now...she will call with MANY MANY hands here that you don't think YOU'D call with...but its not you...its the asian lady there at the table.

i really think tyler has a river bet and a call of any checkraise.

[/ QUOTE ]


Considering this Asian Lady is a relatively new player you don't have a really good read on the person. Yes you can most certainly bet it here and even call a Check raise. I agree. But this is a "situational" play. And I think it won't hurt your long run chances of picking up extra bets if you do this in certain situations.

Might I add being too aggressive will cost you more bets in long run as well. But that's not what I am trying to drive home here. Its that this is a new player and by checking behind it does many things.


Ed S.

[nopepper]

I would bet and call a c/r..if your beat show down your hand..it will bring you more action for the next few hours

[TimTimSalabim]

I think I'm probably retarded, because I bet on Diablo's hand /images/graemlins/laugh.gif, but I'd bet here as well. Since she limped preflop, that makes an A or K somewhat less likely than normal. Plus most players would bet the A or K, fearing you would check behind. And she will probably call with any spade. If you get c/red, of course, that makes it much more likely you're beat, but you're gonna have to pay it off, at the very least to get a better line on her play.