This is why you should raise preflop with Aces

[faman]

Man I hate party, it must be rigged because Aces are always getting cracked by garbage like 810s /images/graemlins/grin.gif


Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks,

Flop: (7 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, Button folds, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls.

River: (9.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 16.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 16.50 BB, between Hero, UTG+2 and MP1.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Hero (16.50 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero shows 8h Th (straight, jack high).
UTG+2 shows As Ah (two pair, aces and nines).
MP1 shows Ad Ac (two pair, aces and nines).
Outcome: Hero wins 16.50 BB. </font>

[Nottom]

I think thats the first hand where I've seen 2 players butcher their rockets together, but it still doesn't make your flop call any better.

[Bill Smith]

Pretty thin flop call, wouldn't you say? You've got a weak overcard and a couple backdoor possibilities, but that's it.

[bernie]

Players will call a flop like this with crap, drawing even thinner than they were preflop?

If you're going to just call this flop, why wouldn't you coldcall a raise preflop?

If i had aces, i wouldn't mind that you won this hand.

b

[faman]

I was hoping some people would bring up the flop call, as I'm not 100% sure about it. I have 2 backdoor draws, which I've read can be counted as 1-2 outs each, so being generous I have 4 outs and need 11-1 odds to make the call.

I'm getting 9-1 on a flop call with 3 players to act behind me, and as the table was full of calling stations I figured there was a good chance that 1-2 of them would call. Add to that the implied odds when I do make my hand, and I think the call is reasonable (but again this is all assuming that I can count the 2 backdoor draws as 4 outs).

Is this a reasonable line of thinking, or am I just another Party calling station? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[lu_hawk]

You raise preflop because aces will win much more than the garbage hands that will call the raise and you want as much money in the pot as possible.

They played it horribly, but your flop call was very bad. Drawing to runner runner straights isn't going to make you a lot of money.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm getting 9-1 on a flop call with 3 players to act behind me, and as the table was full of calling stations I figured there was a good chance that 1-2 of them would call.

[/ QUOTE ]
9:1 is not enough to call this. Also, having three players yet to act behind you is generally not a good thing to justify making a worse than marginal call as one of them may raise.

[ QUOTE ]
Add to that the implied odds when I do make my hand, and I think the call is reasonable (but again this is all assuming that I can count the 2 backdoor draws as 4 outs).


[/ QUOTE ]
Implied odds are not really your friend when chasing backdoor draws as you will usually end up putting in another BB or two on the turn when you do pick up a stronger draw only to miss on the river.

[Sundevils21]

lets just say that the flop call was very borderline(as in, way too loose). If all the cards were played face up, the other two were very happy you decided to give action on the flop.

[k000k]

[ QUOTE ]
(but again this is all assuming that I can count the 2 backdoor draws as 4 outs).

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't, I think a backdoor straight is 64:1 and a backdoor flush is 24:1. I can't give you any more than 2 outs for that, so we're talking at least 22:1 there....

[bilbo-san]

[ QUOTE ]
Players will call a flop like this with crap, drawing even thinner than they were preflop?

If you're going to just call this flop, why wouldn't you coldcall a raise preflop?

If i had aces, i wouldn't mind that you won this hand.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

But if either had played their Aces even remotely correctly, you wouldn't have. It should have costed 4 small bets to see the turn here. Unbelievable how passive Party is.

Hands like this is exactly why so many people get their AA hands whacked. Based on postflop action, neither player was playing deceptively, they're just insanely passive.

I love to play against players that will always let me see flops and turns this cheaply (but nevertheless I agree your flop call was very weak. Btw your calculation of pot odds neglects the case where you make your hand but lose to a full house, since the board was paired. You need a lot more than 9-1 to call here).

[faman]

Okay, so I obviously made a horrendous flop call. I knew at the time that it was thin at best, but I remember reading something in HPFAP that says it's occasionally correct to see the turn cheaply even when immediate pot odds don't justify it, as long as you're willing to give it up on the turn if you whiff (although there's a very good chance that this was not one of those times when it's correct /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

Thanks to everyone for letting me know how much I suck. Time to go reread HPFAP again!

Here's the big question though: who's play was worse, mine or the two guys with rockets? They were willing to let me see the turn for 1 SB, and I was willing to invest 1 SB to try to pull off a major suckout. I think that the 1 SB paid for itself in implied tilt odds alone /images/graemlins/grin.gif

On a related note, how would I calculate the pot/implied odds needed to justify a call in this spot? Should I make a post in the Probability forum?

[k000k]

[ QUOTE ]
I remember reading something in HPFAP that says it's occasionally correct to see the turn cheaply even when immediate pot odds don't justify it, as long as you're willing to give it up on the turn if you whiff (although there's a very good chance that this was not one of those times when it's correct /images/graemlins/smile.gif)


[/ QUOTE ]
You can call without pot odds ONLY if you are positive you can make it back in implied IF you hit... IE, lets say you have a gutshot str8 draw. See the turn if you have 10:1 pot odds, cuz your straight will usually be good, and you'll get turn and river bets to make up for the slightly short pot odds on the flop. HOWEVER: If the board is suited, paired, or you have the dummy end of the str8, the true 11:1 odds may not be enough, since your str8 will lose often in these scenarios.

[ QUOTE ]
I think that the 1 SB paid for itself in implied tilt odds alone /images/graemlins/grin.gif


[/ QUOTE ]
'Tilt odds', thats a good one!

[ QUOTE ]

On a related note, how would I calculate the pot/implied odds needed to justify a call in this spot? Should I make a post in the Probability forum?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, you have essentially nothing.. It's about 22:1 for your backdoors.. You have to count the cost of the flop AND turn bets in your calculations, that'll be probably 1.5 bets, possibly MUCH more... Someone holding 9 is gonna start raising, and they have outs to a boat, as do any pocket pairs, which kills BOTH your backdoors... Lets say it'll cost you 2BB to see the river, at 25:1 which discounts for boats, etc.. There should be a final pot of about 50BB to make this call worthwhile.. The only way to get 50 in there is if everyone does a lot of raising, but that drives that 50BB figure into 3 digits... The more players raise, the worse this situation gets. You simply can not (correctly) call.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the big question though: who's play was worse, mine or the two guys with rockets?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is definitely not the big question. Less fishy that the fish isn't what you should be shooting for.

Not to blast you, because you obviously do make a good point about the reasons to raise pre-flop, but don't confused good results with good decisions -- this play will cost you a lot of money long-term. We all make mistakes chasing when we shouldn't. Just file this one away as a "free" lesson (actually, you got paid for this lesson!), and don't do it again. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Wada]

[ QUOTE ]
Not to blast you, because you obviously do make a good point about the reasons to raise pre-flop,

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point.
So Faman - you obviously would have folded had they raised preflop?

[faman]

[ QUOTE ]
So Faman - you obviously would have folded had they raised preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I definitely would've folded to any preflop raise or flop raise, and probably 99% of the time I would've folded to the flop bet anyway. I guess I was in the mood to "gamb00l" and I managed to (incorrectly) convince myself that the implied odds justified the call /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[HajiShirazu]

While the flop call is bad, there's no reason to think that you wouldn't likely be ahead if you caught a ten or an eight.
It's still really bad though. Drawing to T8 "overcards" with a pair on the board against seven players isn't a winning move. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[kiemo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So Faman - you obviously would have folded had they raised preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I definitely would've folded to any preflop raise

[/ QUOTE ]

Quotes like this shouldnt be said.

If UTG raises and everyone between you and him call are you folding then? I hope not.

[faman]

[ QUOTE ]
If UTG raises and everyone between you and him call are you folding then? I hope not.

[/ QUOTE ]

You bring up a good point, I guess I shouldn't have said "any" preflop raise. But how do you determine how many callers/limpers you need before playing a hand like a suited one gap? This is one of the areas where I'm still a little confused.

In your example I would definitely call, but if even 1-2 players folded I would probably also fold and I don't know if this is correct. What kind of guidelines do you guys use when making preflop decisions with weaker hands like 108s?

[citizenkn]

wow...so weird. I posted a very similar hand a few weeks ago. I had Q-8 in BB, bunch of limpers, I flop top two pair, and the betting goes nuts. At the end, two players turn over AA and I drag a giganto pot.

One person limping with aces, I can see. But two people, on the same hand, BOTH limping with aces? And now I've seen two examples in just a few weeks. That's crazy....love Party!