Help me understand: If your hand is worth a call . . .

[SuitedSixes]

In HEP Sklansky writes, "If your hand is worth a call or even almost worth a call if you check, and someone else bets, then it is better to bet yourself (semi-bluff) if you have little fear of a raise and there is chance you will win right then."

Does anyone else have trouble with this strategy on the internet? It's not the "little fear of a raise" part that get me. I love the aggressiveness of it, but it seems to be getting me into trouble lately. I never seem to get the "win right then" part. Then, if I don't bet I am either getting killed by the late player who bets because everyone else has checked, or by the late player who bets late because he has something worth betting. Doesn't anybody check down anymore? So is this only a middle-late strategy? Help!

[Alobar]

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I never seem to get the "win right then" part.

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This is true of most micro/low limit games. It isn't really a semi bluff if you have no chance to win the pot right there, you need to realize that at these limits it really has NO chance to win right there. So you want to bet for different reasons. Bet hands you want to get callers with, bet hands you would call with because all things the same its still better to be the bettor. Checkraise the hands you want to protect. Or just fold and wait for a better opportunity

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Then, if I don't bet I am either getting killed by the late player who bets because everyone else has checked

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If you think he has no hand and is just posistion betting, and you have a hand worth a call, you're probably better off with a raise

[soah]

Check/calling wins if your hand wins a showdown.

Betting wins if you win a showdown or if everyone folds.

You are investing exactly the same amount of money in the pot both times, but betting is more likely to get the chips into your stack.

For example, the board is K94 and you hold A8s in the big blind. You can't fold your hand here with several people in the pot. If you check, you make yourself sick the times that the button bets the flop and turn with pocket threes and takes the pot after you miss your draw. Betting gives everyone the chance to fold their crappy hands that can still beat yours.

Betting draws and marginal hands has the added benefit of sometimes getting you extra action when you flop strong made hands and your play seems a bit loose to others.

[SuitedSixes]

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For example, the board is K94 and you hold A8s in the big blind. You can't fold your hand here with several people in the pot. If you check, you make yourself sick the times that the button bets the flop and turn with pocket threes and takes the pot after you miss your draw. Betting gives everyone the chance to fold their crappy hands that can still beat yours.

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So, if I'm understanding you . . . for example, you'd bet with overcards if you were on a straight or flush draw, but call if you were just on a draw.

[SuitedSixes]

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If you think he has no hand and is just posistion betting, and you have a hand worth a call, you're probably better off with a raise

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Ok, here's the hand i just had. I am SB with 99. The flop comes AKx six players in at the flop. Checks around to last player who bets (of course). I raise him and he calls. Turn comes X. I check, he bets. Do I fold here, raise to keep up the illusion of strength or just cut bait and get out? I called all the way down and lost to his A9.

I have just recently had these problems. I am in a MAJOR slide and I am just questioning everything that I do. I just don't have a feel for my opponents anymore.

[SuitedSixes]

Ok, here's my latest one, also SB. Me Ac9c.
Flop comes 2c10c2d. With me, BB, and CO. I bet. BB folds, CO calls.
Turn comes 2h. I bet again. Get called again. (At this point should I figure out he has a T and get out?)
River comes X. I bet again, and lose to his T6o.

I am down 13 BB in this session.

[ipp147]

here's my take on this (I am by no means an expert).

With the AK on the flop against 6 opponents I am probably in check/fold mode.

At low limit levels any A is normally enough for someone to see the flop.

The key here though is the fact that you checkraised the flop and yet he still bets into your check on the turn. To me it indicates he something.

[nykenny]

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The flop comes AKx six players in at the flop.

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very likely someone has an Ace, or King. almost certain someone has at least one of them. fold to a bet and curse the over cards that fell on the flop.

[Alobar]

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Ok, here's the hand i just had. I am SB with 99. The flop comes AKx six players in at the flop. Checks around to last player who bets (of course). I raise him and he calls. Turn comes X. I check, he bets. Do I fold here, raise to keep up the illusion of strength or just cut bait and get out? I called all the way down and lost to his A9.



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this is an easy fold, somebody prolly has the A and you may even get someone who will call with a K or a gutshot draw

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

At LL, this is an easy fold. Even at 2/4, many will see the flop with Axo, and with 6 in the game, somebody has an A. If not, ten somebody has a K. You are not going to lose money in the long run folding 99 to an AKx flop in LL.

[SuitedSixes]

I agree with everyone that this is an easy fold, except for the fact that it is the last player. I just feel like LP feels compelled to bet any time it checks around to him. If it was anyone earlier, I'd muck in a heartbeat. I just feel like I am folding lots of hands to guys who watch too much WPT. I also realize that "playing sherriff" is costing me more than it is gaining me. It's strange that if I had to say what my two biggest leaks were right now, it is trying to steal too much and defending too hard against a steal. Sometimes I have a very good feel for when it is right and when it isn't, but lately is has been costing me a lot of money. I just need to wait for the right situation . . .

I learned my lesson later last night when I was last with AA. It folded all the way around to me pre-flop, so I raised. SB raised back. He kept up the charade the whole way raising and re-raising until he lost with T4o. I just think that this has been a lesson that I have had to learn the hard way, and it took watching someone "stupid" do the same thing that I do make me realize what an absurd play it is. I have very tight starting standards, so when I do enter a pot with good cards, I get irritated when they don't hold up and try to force the issue. Thanks for all of your help and advice.

66s

[Oblivious]

Lets see if i can dream up an example:

Youre at a loose passive table in MP with Q /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif and limp. The button also limps and the blinds see the flop. The flop is K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Certainly you'd call if the SB bet out. Youd also call a bet from the button if it were checked to him. If you dont think the button will raise behind you, even if he does hold a K (many low limit players are like this), you should bet and represent the King yourself. Youve already said you wouldnt respect the buttons position bet anyway. If youre willing to call him, put your bet out their first and give him a chance to fold. It costs the same, but you get the extra money from the times they all fold for FREE.

[CORed]

With six players, and two overcards to my pocket pair, I would not even think about doing anything but checking and folding to any bet. Anybody with a clue in early position is likely to check a king or a weak ace. Your 9's are almost certainly beat, and your're drawing to two outs. In a loose game -- and 6 players seeing the flop is pretty damn loose -- lots of players will play any ace or king. Fold your 9's and wait for the next hand.

[Mikey]

pg. 94 2nd paragraph. Read the last few sentences. Then read the last sentence over and over. Then you will understand.

[sthief09]

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Ok, here's my latest one, also SB. Me Ac9c.
Flop comes 2c10c2d. With me, BB, and CO. I bet. BB folds, CO calls.
Turn comes 2h. I bet again. Get called again. (At this point should I figure out he has a T and get out?)
River comes X. I bet again, and lose to his T6o.

I am down 13 BB in this session.

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sadly enough, he outplayed you on this hand. I suffer from this too. being aggressive helps you win more, but it can hurt you sometimes too (but less than it helps you). a semi-bluff isn't a semi-bluff if the person you're playing against won't fold.

[SuitedSixes]

So the semi-bluff was wrong because of who it was against? Or was it more wrong because I continued with it? At what point do you cut your losses on a hand and move on? I guess it probably all depends on the read you have on the player.