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Barrett's Last Privateer

07-11-2004, 09:52 PM

I know this is a very small sample, but thought it powerfully illustrated the fact that ITM% is not the best measure of SNG success. I've only been keeping stats for my last 33 SNGs, but think it's pretty consistent with my results in general:

Games: 33
1st: 1
2nd: 5
3rd: 11 (!)
For a health ITM of 52% but a pathetic ROI of 10%.

I'm often the short stack when it gets down to three, due to some very tight play in the early stages, but don't really attribute my bad results from that stage to that fact. By the time it gets down to 3 the blinds are ususally huge, and in most games I've won a pot or two to be back in the mix. I think the real reason is that I suck at short handed play!

Any general pointes about how to play once 3 handed would be much appreciated.

Cheers.

fyodor

07-11-2004, 10:00 PM

Get aggressive.
Start stealing.

skaboomizzy

07-11-2004, 11:13 PM

Don't wait for 3-handed to get aggressive. Start at 5 or 6 depending on the tightness of the table. At lower-level SNGs, you will be shocked what people will call or push in with to defend their blinds.

AleoMagus

07-12-2004, 12:23 AM

Did you recieve a letter of marque from the king to cruise the cyber-seas for american gold? Firing no guns and shedding no tears?

How I wish I was in Sherbrooke now...

Regards
Brad S

PS - as far as your actual question, I found my three handed success improved when I stopped looking for huge edges once in the final 3. The game becomes something of a luckfest at that point and if you are scared away from too many pots looking for secure hands (Top pair, etc...) you might be demolished.

Another good tactic is to slowplay more in the final 3 with weaker hands than you are accustomed to. Top pair with a good kicker is not that bad a slowplaying hand in the final 3 and particularly heads up. Party players love to take shots at pots if they are checked a lot and I have won a lot of tourneys by being coy with strong hands.

Jason Strasser

07-12-2004, 02:28 AM

The best advice for shorthanded play is the following, IMO of course.

If you have 10x the BB, you have 2 moves. Push/fold. Pick out the hands that you will push in this spot (before and after the bubble). Of course, this very much depends on opponents... But generally:

Any Ace, K9+, QT+, any pair. When the blinds make 10x my stack and I am 5 handed or less, I will open raise all in with all of these hands. I promise your net result will be a lower ITM, a much more polarized (more 1sts, less 2nd and thirds, many more 4ths and 5ths) group of finishes, and a higher ROI.

Keep it simple shorthanded. It's really not that hard, take advantage of other people being unwilling to call off their chips on the bubble. I really only call all-in for my stack with AQ(sometimes), AK, AA-QQ. And sometimes I will fold AK or QQ under very special circumstances.

Be the aggressor. You will make more money.

ddubois

07-12-2004, 02:41 AM

Top pair with a good kicker is not that bad a slowplaying hand in the final 3 and particularly heads up. Party players love to take shots at pots if they are checked a lot and I have won a lot of tourneys by being coy with strong hands.

Oh man, yes! By sheer coincidence, I just happened to start doing this alot today. I know it's going to bite me in teh ass eventually, but so far, I'm cleaning up in heads up play with this technique, because like you said, some people are just compulsive about betting when checked to, and exploiting that trait is amazingly profitable.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (2 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero (t5450)
Button (t2550)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Button raises to t600, Hero calls t300,

Flop: (t1200) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets t300, Hero calls t300.

Turn: (t1800) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets t300, Hero calls t300.

River: (t2400) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets t300, Hero raises to t600, Button calls t300.

Final Pot: t3600
Main Pot: t3600 (t3600), between Hero and Button. > Pot won by Hero (t3600).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows 4c Ks (two pair, kings and fours).
Button shows Jd Th (two pair, jacks and tens).
Outcome: Hero wins t3600. 

--------------------------------

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (2 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero (t4057)
Button (t3943)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Button calls t200, Hero checks,

Flop: (t800) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets t400, Hero calls t400.

Turn: (t1600) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets t400, Hero calls t400.

River: (t2400) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets t400, Hero calls t400.

Final Pot: t3200
Main Pot: t3200 (t3200), between Hero and Button. > Pot won by Hero (t3200).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Th Js (two pair, jacks and tens).
Button shows Jh 8h (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins t3200. 

--------------------------------

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (2 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero (t5270)
BB (t2730)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero calls t150, BB checks,

Flop: (t600) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t600) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (t600) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets t300, Hero raises to t600, BB raises to t900, Hero raises to t1200, BB calls t300.

Final Pot: t3000
Main Pot: t3000 (t3000), between Hero and BB. > Pot won by Hero (t3000).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Qc Kc (one pair, kings).
BB shows 4h Js (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins t3000.

Jason Strasser

07-12-2004, 02:58 AM

Here's how I play these hands:

1) I like how u played it, although I would CR all in the turn bet.

2) Same thing. I get my money in on the turn with 3 diamonds out for sure.

3) I push preflop.

ZeeJustin

07-12-2004, 03:53 AM

You completely neglect position in your advice. Even if there's 4 players left, there should be a significant difference between the hands you play utg, and the hands you play on the button. Having 1 more player to act after you that might have a hand he's willing to call with is a huge disadvantage.

Barrett's Last Privateer

07-12-2004, 03:59 AM

Brad,

Thanks for the response.

Thanks for the advice about the poker too!

Seriously though, appreciate the feedback from all respondents, certainly gives me some good stuff to think about, I'll report back in a couple of weeks with an update.

mackthefork

07-12-2004, 08:02 AM

I dunno, i tried this a little and they seem to call with almost any 2 J9 or better and any PP, i think you give the folding equity in this move too much strength, 10+1 players are loathe to fold any suited hand too. It seems like doing this puts me in a lot of coinflip situations against players who are much worse than me imo only.

Regards ML

Jason Strasser

07-12-2004, 08:26 AM

Hey Zee,

Tell me if im missing anything, but I was referring to three heads up hands. Position is important heads up, but my advice still holds.

37offsuit

07-12-2004, 08:39 AM

You're probably playing too tight at this stage and, most importantly, not stealing enough blinds. You have to make some moves when it gets down to three handed.

Make moves with any ace, suited connectors, and connected high cards from Q9 on up.

I'd also guess that you're not taking advantage of the bubble tightness that lets you steal more blinds as well.

Every blind you steal is one more rotation you can get through.

Also, be aware that a good large stack will get aggressive if the two people left are close in chips and seem to be waiting for the other to bust to move up to second. They may raise any two or bet out into any flop. Be aware of this, especially when an all in from you can still do damage to his stack, or when you flop a middle pair and a draw and he bets out into you.

Jsb

07-12-2004, 01:30 PM

Jason,
ZeeJustin was referring to your first post in this thread, containing advice on shorthanded play.

Jason Strasser

07-12-2004, 01:57 PM

Oh!

Then yes, of course position matters. I was just intending to give a brief little synopsis of shorthanded play, I did omit position which is obviously very important. Pushing from UTG is a lot different than pushing from the SB. A lot depends on table dynamics though.

Thanks for pointing this out.

ddubois

07-12-2004, 02:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
3) I push preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
What range of hands to you call-ins with pre-flop during heads up play? I think most people, at least at the 10/1 level, fold a lttle too much heads up, which allows me to raise 'way too many' hands and bleed them away. So, that said, I think these people will call SB's all-in with any ace, any pair (or maybe any two paint cards?). Therefore, while I know KQs is a great hand, I have to wonder, will I only be called when I'm behind? Or do you think Kx should be included in the hands they will call with?

Consider this as being an example of only being called when behind. Well, it's not exactly the same, but I think it demonstrates my point about what people are willing to go all-in with:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (2 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero (t3660)
BB (t4340)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Hero calls t100, BB raises to t900, Hero raises to t3660 (All-In), BB calls t2760.

Flop: (t7320) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t7320) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t7320) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t7320
Main Pot: t7320 (t7320), between Hero and BB. > Pot won by Hero (t7320).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Kh Jd (one pair, jacks).
BB shows 6h As (high card, ace).
Outcome: Hero wins t7320. 

Back to the hand #3. Obviously this is inappropriate, but if I were to be results-oriented... if I pushed pre-flop, he surely would have folded J4, and I would have lost to opportunity to trap him for chips post-flop.

Heads up, I tend to do alot of random stuff to keep my opponent guessing; sometimes I push, sometimes I grab the slider and fling it up some 3-5xBB-ish amount, sometimes I complete/check, sometimes I even fold, and I frequently min-raise (usually with my best hands and my worst). I do have a sense that my play would be admonished for not pushing enough according to this board's standards though, but I'm not sure were best to implement the various bet sizes. (And I'm really sure I don't use stop-n-go enough, because I do it basically never. /images/graemlins/frown.gif)

Jason Strasser

07-12-2004, 02:16 PM

Ddubois,

This has everything to do with your opponent, and to a lesser degree, what stakes you play for. The reason stakes are important is because generally, the higher stakes, the longer the SNG, and the higher the blind level when heads up.

In the hand u just posted, you are playing heads up with a BB of 200. I rarely see this, and as a result, because the BB is almost always 400 and above, I have one move heads up and that is all-in or fold. (I'll check if my opponent completes and I don't want to push, duh)

For me, KQs is a powerhouse heads up. Sure, I'm behind a naked ace, but KQs is a heck of a lot better than a lot of the hands I push preflop. If your opponents are too tight heads up, then you should be pushing lots of hands preflop. Hands a lot worse than KQs. You never think "I'll only get called by a better hand", because often heads up your opponent will never see that better hand... Your opponent will just hand you the blinds, and then when he does decide to call, if he is ahead, he has a chance to double through with the blinds you stole. Sometimes it is correct to push on every hand.

To the KJo hand, I would never complete. I suppose I would raise to 600, and then push on the flop.

As to min raising heads up, I don't like it. I don't understand how it is useful. Then again, I don't play 'finesse' poker either.

ddubois

07-12-2004, 02:31 PM

This is how I percieve things to be. And it's certainly possible that a) I'm completely wrong and just getting lucky, or b) what I say only applies against clueless $10/1 people:

Alot of people seem just as eager to hand over their blinds to min-raises. You min-raise them 3-5 times in 4-6 hands, they get sick of it (or finally get a great hand) and push, you fold your 84s, and then you go back to min-raising another handful of times. By the time they realize they've been abused, you can change gears and use some other strategy, one that involves more pushing, more post-flop play, whatever, but by the time that occurs you've already sucked down a bunch of blinds, and you didn't expose yourself to walking into a monster. (If someone knows what you are doing, they can abuse you right back with stop-n-gos. That happened to me once and it was ugly.)

Jason Strasser

07-12-2004, 02:37 PM

Everything I say is what works for me. If you have a strategy at a 10+1 level, or any level, that works, you'd be stupid not to use it, and I'd be stupid to criticize you.

By all means, if min raising beats the crap out of your opponents, keep doing it. Just know that as you progress to higher limits you will be destroyed doing it.