tommy posts sinking in?

[mike l.]

okay 20-40 live game, i have KQo, a good utg limps, i raise utg+1, decent player cold calls behind me, bb calls, utg 3 bets, i fold.

[andyfox]

One would think he must have A-A or K-K, at worst A-K. And there's a player behind you. An unenviable postion. Cut and run seems right. The 19:2 is counteracted by being in the middle post-flop against UTG who will surely push his big hand.


In this situation, I usually ask for one chip back before folding. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Ulysses]

Call and flop the nuts.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
okay 20-40 live game, i have KQo, a good utg limps, i raise utg+1, decent player cold calls behind me, bb calls, utg 3 bets, i fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

this isn't just a tommy concept, it is universal more or less. you tried to take charge of the hand with a hand at the weak end of your range here. not only have you been limp-reraised by a good utg (usually signifying a monster or a hand that dominates yours), but my guess is that about a third of the time it will go become a "wtf" cap before the flop costing you two more bets.

bad spot here, reverse implied odds, good fold.

~ rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

it feels weird being one step behind and agreeing with you /images/graemlins/grin.gif

~ rick

[Ray Zee]

you got what you deserved

[mike l.]

"you got what you deserved"

that i saved at least $20? that i got a ray zee response to my post? i dont get it. what did i deserve?

[rory]

I think he is questioning raising a good UTG limper UTG+1 w/ KQo.

[bicyclekick]

Yeha I don't like raising a good UTG with KQo like that. That's a good spot to fold that hand, as I think playing it isn't +EV.

[mike l.]

"Yeha I don't like raising a good UTG with KQo like that. That's a good spot to fold that hand, as I think playing it isn't +EV."

nah he can have all sorts of hands i am doing very well against. the game is a good one and although he's tight and decent he's not 2+2 standard tight and great. so he is playing hands like JTs, KJ, QJs, and quite a few other hands id like to run my KQo up against with position. when he reraises me however that's another story altogether.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
"Yeha I don't like raising a good UTG with KQo like that. That's a good spot to fold that hand, as I think playing it isn't +EV."

nah he can have all sorts of hands i am doing very well against. the game is a good one and although he's tight and decent he's not 2+2 standard tight and great. so he is playing hands like JTs, KJ, QJs, and quite a few other hands id like to run my KQo up against with position. when he reraises me however that's another story altogether.

[/ QUOTE ]

hehe. Be a little more clear on your game conditions post next time, cause when you say "ok 20/40 game" I think of a decently tight/aggressive game...and in said game if you say good player I think of a 2+2 mid limit player...

[J_V]

not playing KQ cuz a decent player limped UTG is scaaared poker.

[skp]

The reference is to raising with KQ off when a good player is already in. The hand is too good to fold but I am not crazy about raising in early position with KQ off even when the limper ahead is not a very good player.

I would just limp along (but hey, I do limp a lot more than almost everybody on this board).

[mike l.]

"when you say "ok 20/40 game" I think of a decently tight/aggressive game"

no that would be classified as "awful game".

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
"when you say "ok 20/40 game" I think of a decently tight/aggressive game"

no that would be classified as "awful game".

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok I guess i'm not familiar with live play, especially in CA.

What do you classify the typical evening party 15 game as curiously...like compaired to that 20/40 you were talking about?

[mike l.]

"What do you classify the typical evening party 15 game as curiously...like compaired to that 20/40 you were talking about?"

tough as nails lmao why else do you think i play live instead of online?

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
"What do you classify the typical evening party 15 game as curiously...like compaired to that 20/40 you were talking about?"

tough as nails lmao why else do you think i play live instead of online?

[/ QUOTE ]

MB i'm retarded but I don't think the party 15 game is tough as nails? Seems like anyone with half a brain and even a remote understanding of poker could be at least a slight winning player in that game.

[astroglide]

he said that the party 15/30 is tough as nails compared to the 20/40 game he was playing.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
he said that the party 15/30 is tough as nails compared to the 20/40 game he was playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know what he said, I'm just suprised, I guess.

[cero_z]

Hi bk,
The reason mike l. thinks the CA games are great, and the PP 15 is awful, is because he flourishes in a loose aggressive game IN WHICH you can see your opponents. Obviously from his last few posts (all of his posts, really), mike has shown himself to be a "seat of your pants", intuitive type of player, as opposed to a mathematical, analytical type. If mike thinks he's beat, he gets out. If mike thinks he's ahead, he reraises. He doesn't give a lot of credence to the process of, "how often is this decision right/wrong, how much does it cost compared to the alternative". Mike's type (and I'm one as well, to a lesser extent) will not do as well online as in a live game without practice.
How do we (mike and I) improve in these areas (understanding betting patterns, etc.), assuming we care? We re-read Chapter 21 of The Theory of Poker over and over again, and apply its concepts not just to being head up on the end.
And, a there are a lot of mathematical/analytical types who can learn to play "solid poker", but who will feel lost in a "great game", according to mike l. The downside for these players is that it's probably harder for them to improve their weaknesses: reading players, confidently playing weak holdings.

[mike l.]

i want very much to be a player who is more intuitive and gifted in that way, and to some extent i am very good at that sort of thing, but im nowhere as good at it as some players ive seen here and there once in awhile. i still do sit there and plot options out and count the pot size in my head and make decisions based on that way too much still. it saddens me, i want to have it all much more loose and natural and free flowing goodness. in time.

for now im still very much a prisoner to the numbers like most of you and rarely find it in me to make daring plays. this KQ fold got my juices flowing and half the people here didnt even find it impressive.

[cero_z]

Hi mike,
I may be on shakier ground with this one, but I say the implied odds work in your favor here, since you "know" UTG has AA or KK. If you don't suspect another raise this round, I say call it, and play your hand as if your opponent has AA or KK on the flop. You can win a big pot from him, and he can only win the bets that have gone in pre-flop, unless you flop an excellent draw, or outflop him but end up losing. If these dingbats regularly re-pop from LP, as Rick N. suggested, then you have a clear fold.

[mike l.]

"If these dingbats regularly re-pop from LP, as Rick N. suggested,"

yeah he said at least a third of the time and that was way off in the case of this saner than normal game. but in other games ive played the chances of this wouldve been closer to 100%.

[Clarkmeister]

Why didn't this hand end for you after "good UTG limps, I'm UTG+1 with KQo"?

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
not playing KQ cuz a decent player limped UTG is scaaared poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

But he didn't say "decent", he said "good". And mike l. never uses "good" to describe his opponents. "Pig", "Terrible", and "awful", yes. But never "good".

[mike l.]

"Why didn't this hand end for you after "good UTG limps, I'm UTG+1 with KQo"?"

read my post with the subject "the raise preflop is correct". it explains it all.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
"Why didn't this hand end for you after "good UTG limps, I'm UTG+1 with KQo"?"

read my post with the subject "the raise preflop is correct". it explains it all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever. Ray Zee agrees with me, that means I win. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[mike l.]

"Whatever. Ray Zee agrees with me, that means I win."

ive been told that's just how it is around here but im becoming less and less convinced of that being a sound way to handle these things.

[Clarkmeister]

In general I agree with your sentiments. But Zee is the only one I confer those powers to. He's the only poser I've never seen post anything that is even close to wrong.

But if you are comfortable with your play on the hand, that's cool. After all, this is coming from a guy who basically (in a different thread) said "hey mike, you haven't played the 25 headsup hands I have vs gabe, so just trust me when I say that it was mandatory that I 4-bet this hand this time in this spot." So if you feel the same way about this preflop line, that's cool. It just seems pretty shakey on the surface.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't this hand end for you after "good UTG limps, I'm UTG+1 with KQo"?

[/ QUOTE ]

It makes me feel a little better you agree with me on this one. I started 2nd guessing myself...

[mike l.]

"so just trust me when I say that it was mandatory that I 4-bet this hand this time in this spot."

yeah i read that in your results. we both know there's no way i can argue with that, everything changes when it's just one of those things that has a history behind it. i was really just being contrary and silly, although i think there were some ideas hiding in their somewhere. maybe it all came out so weird because 4 betting (and 6 betting) the QTs has become compulsory for me lately.

as for my play of this hand. so what do you think i should do preflop? fold? call? im a little unsure what you think having a good utg limp in means i should do (and remember i qualified his goodness by saying he limps w/ hands like JTs, KJ, and QJs among other hands here). thanks in advance, as always i take what you advise in the utmost of importance.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
thanks in advance, as always i take what you advise in the utmost of importance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now I want to vomit.

OK, I'll take you seriously. Quick story.

Crazy player limps UTG in a game that is frequently 4 bets preflop in Vegas. He's been playing tight. Folded to me on the button with As9s. An auto-raise if there ever was one. But the game was good, he knew it, and his UTG limp was scary as hell in that particular spot. I fold. The case ace flopped and he won with pocket aces.

Look, its not like KQo is a monstrously profitable hand UTG1. It makes money to be sure, but not tons. The fact that UTG now is like 25+% likely to have you by the balls almost certainly eats up any and all of your small margin for error.

Poker is a game of situations. This situation sucks.

[mike l.]

ok thanks. so given that was it right to make the save once reraised and it dawns on my mediocre self? or should i call because it's such and such to one like some of these internet goons are saying?

[Tommy Angelo]

Mike, you did and thought so many wonderful things on this hand I don't even know where to start. Your raise preflop was excellent in my opinion. For me, with KQ UTG+1, when UTG mucks, I usually muck too. And when UTG limps, I usually raise. I don't even know why or care anymore. Which gets right to the free-flowing thing you were talking about. Your fold preflop, wow, that somehow, someway, you found the release trigger and pulled it, means your mind and body were nowhere else, at all, when it happened. And you got the big buzz from it, like you should. Get addicted to that instead of flops and poker will be shockingly easy for you.



Tommy

[MMMMMM]

"In general I agree with your sentiments. But Zee is the only one I confer those powers to. He's the only poser I've never seen post anything that is even close to wrong."

Yeah, maybe that should cause me to rethink some of my positions on the Other Topics Forum.

[Victor]

.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
and remember i qualified his goodness by saying he limps w/ hands like JTs, KJ, and QJs among other hands here)

[/ QUOTE ]

am i wrong to limp w/ JTs and QJS (which i usually do) ?? that seems like a raise in a loose game call in a tight but still good game kinda thing...are you saying i should fold jts UTG? what about QJs? (obviously i dont play KJo at all early, .... ever.)

-Barron

[magic_man]

[ QUOTE ]
am i wrong to limp w/ JTs and QJS (which i usually do) ?? that seems like a raise in a loose game call in a tight but still good game kinda thing

[/ QUOTE ]

...wouldn't you want it the other way around? These are multi-way hands, so in a loose game, if I decide to play them I'd want to call and invite other callers. In a tight game, if I decide to play I'd want to raise some of the time for deception and because I may win the blinds.

~Magic_Man

[andyfox]

While I would welcome you reconsidering some of your Other Topics Forum positions /images/graemlins/wink.gif, I believe Clarkmeister meant Ray's poker advice only. And I also believe he meant "poster," not "poser." "Poser" would apply to the Other Topics Forum. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[andyfox]

Nail on the head. Again. Addicted to making the correct play, whatever it is, even if, in fact, especially if, it means no flop for those pretty cards.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
or should i call because it's such and such to one like some of these internet goons are saying?

[/ QUOTE ]

I call in a live game not because it's such and such to one but because I like a dynamic where I'm doing the raising and others are doing the folding. Once I let them know it could go the other way, they sometimes start to get a little bit of confidence. I prefer to keep them beaten down.

[astroglide]

reminds me of a dilbert cartoon about secretaries

[mike l.]

"Your raise preflop was excellent in my opinion. For me, with KQ UTG+1, when UTG mucks, I usually muck too. And when UTG limps, I usually raise."

yet i would raise or sometimes limp every time here preflop, regardless of what utg does. and clark says i should fold when utg limps. confusion abounds yet im not confused. thanks everyone.

[MMMMMM]

Yeah, but Ray is right on just about everything, not just poker.

[MMMMMM]

"Nail on the head. Again. Addicted to making the correct play, whatever it is, even if, in fact, especially if, it means no flop for those pretty cards."

Those aren't pretty cards utg +1 after a solid limper at a full table.

[MMMMMM]

I think you should fold in that spot too, not even putting in one bet after the solid utg limps.

Why risk getting put in the middle between a limper who could easily have you beat and someone after you who might wake up with a big hand.

[andyfox]

Exactly.

[Ever thought you'd see a reply to you from me that said that? /images/graemlins/smile.gif]

[MMMMMM]

You must be up to something. I smell a ruse ;-)

You must be just trying to subtly encourage me to go ahead and reconsider some of my posts on the OT forum based on Ray Zee's great wisdom. That is why you are being so incredibly agreeable. Well it won't work Andy because I was planning to do that anyway.

But if you stop being so agreeable I might reconsider my decision to reconsider.