How do you do it?!?!?!?

[vetman81]

I have recently started playing on party, and I have been playing in 10+1 SNGs. Every single one I have played in - about 15 so far- I have suffered a bad beat. How do you deal with the constant bad beats that come with the sh*tty play here? Even on the ones I have won I have had to come back from a terrible beat. I'm about to pull my hair out dealing with these dumbasses. Any advice would be appreciated.


Sorry, just needed to vent.

[Jurollo]

Just remember this. The same hands you are losing now to dumbassess will make you a crapload of money in the long run. Keep making +EV plays and you will be fine.

[vetman81]

I know, but in the short run it is VERY frustrating.

BTW, I meant no offense to any dumbasses out there. I shouldn't have compared you to the PP players...

[Jurollo]

Just roll around on your bed laughing with the money you make from PP to comfort yourself during the bad beats.

[stupidsucker]

Short runs are very frustrating indeed. AND they seem worse during the run then they really are. Relax, review your game for any leaks, feel confident that the numbers eventually catch up in the long run. I always think about casinos. Sure some one makes a huge take here and there and beats the house for thousands of dollars.. DO they fret? Hell no. They offer them free dinner too, and maybe a free room. Come on back sir.

Consider yourself the house. You are the one playing the odds for long run +EV.. Relaxing is truely needed IMO, because playing tense can mean playing bad. You can start playing scared or playing too loose.

Always keep a proper bankroll on hand, because a bad run in a short bankroll just compounds the issue.

Hope this helps some. We have all been there.

[FyrFytr998]

There really is nothing to do except deal with it. I know how you feel. It's easy enough to get the money back at a ring game (Provided they don't cut and run.), but hard if you suffer badly at a SNG. That's the most frustrating part of tourneys. You might not get the chance to win back your money from the bad players. Just know it happens to everyone at one time or another. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[AleoMagus]

While I agree with all that has been said so far in this thread, and I particularly like the Casino example, I think there is one thing not being said.

Perhaps you are not a long run winner.

If you are, and KNOW that you are, disregard this post.

If you don't know that you are, you need to start analyzing those beats and trying to figure out if there was a better way to have played those hands. As almost any low stakes Party player can tell you, if you took notes on all your beats, it would look like a big list of things like:

AA cracked against TT
KJ steal called down and lost to J9
66 push shortstacked called down by TQ which spiked T on turn
and so on....

Even when you have an edge, you will eventually be beaten and if you are going to a showndown too often in a SNG, you will find that your profit goes down even when you always seem to have the upper hand.

Perhaps you need to start pushing people off hands more often, or otherwise finding better ways to get them to laydown with stop and go plays, or more agressive betting.

Another key is going through their hands and asking if they were really wrong to play the way they did. Particularly when the blinds are huge, you will find that two players can both be +EV in a hand, despite one having an edge over the other.

Just some thoughts

Regards
Brad S

[vetman81]

AA cracked by AT, QQ by 86o, etc.

I feel like I am a long term winner. I won $1.85 in a UB freeroll last November and turned it into over 3K in the following few months. I've been playing on this money ever since then. I know just from reading these forums that there are many better players than me, but I feel I am better than most people I play against at these limits. However, since I am an unemployed college student, I haven't had a chance to build my bankroll because I often have to take money from it for non poker related expenses.

After the first day on PP, I more than doubled my $100 deposit, but haven't been doing as well since then. I have only been playing on Party since Wednesday though, but with all the talk of how fishy it was I had to try it out.

Thanks for all of the replies. I realize this happens to everyone, and I just needed to vent.

[Cosimo]

Have you been playing NL SNGs the whole time? It's quite different than limit ring games. Besides being no-limit, one also has to play shorthanded, and it's a tournament.

To win a tournament, you need to increase your stack from 1000 chips to 10,000. That's a 10-fold increase. The only way to do that is to win 4 all-ins, in a row, without losing any. You're going to get beat by bad hands. If you're playing good, the only way to not get first in a SNG is for your KK to hit AA, or a bad beat.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
To win a tournament, you need to increase your stack from 1000 chips to 10,000. That's a 10-fold increase. The only way to do that is to win 4 all-ins, in a row, without losing any. You're going to get beat by bad hands.


[/ QUOTE ]


i have won MANY sng's without winning 4 all-in's. did you really mean to say it is the ONLY way to win??
this is grossly incorrect.


[ QUOTE ]
If you're playing good, the only way to not get first in a SNG is for your KK to hit AA, or a bad beat.

[/ QUOTE ]


you're kidding, right??

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you are not a long run winner.

If you are, and KNOW that you are, disregard this post.

If you don't know that you are, you need to start analyzing those beats and trying to figure out if there was a better way to have played those hands. As almost any low stakes Party player can tell you, if you took notes on all your beats, it would look like a big list of things like:

[/ QUOTE ]


this is exactly what i was thinking aleo.

there are a LOT of players who think their luck has just been terrible time and time again yet they fail to realize that they made an incorrect all-in push or call.

i've played against many players who freak-out when they lose a 50-50 all-in (TT vs. KQ or something). 'unreal!!' is commonly typed in the little chat-box.


there have been several 'sorry to rant...just had to share this bad-beat hand with someone' type of posts on very poorly played hands. the original poster thinks he took the worst beat he's ever heard of and 15 2+2'ers are trying to show him why the beat wasn't really a bad-beat and why he never should have been playing the hand in the first place.


so my suggestion to the original poster here is to post some hands where he has some doubts as to whether he made the right play.
even an AA losing to 72o can be misplayed if you let your opponent draw a cheap or free card. in other words....it is possible to lose a hand where you a huge favorite pre-flop or even post-flop and STILL deserve to place the blame squarely on your own silly self for playing the hand incorrectly.

[Jason Strasser]

Microbob,

Please, you must know that in order to win a SNG

1) You never steal blinds

2) You must double up AT LEAST 4x

3) You must have a very sexy screen name

like strassa2

I would also like to add that theoretical dollars spend very poorly at local shops in my area.

[vetman81]

Alright then, I will start posting my SNG hand histories and let you all go over them. I am open to any constructive criticism of my play. If I am doing something wrong, then tell me why it is wrong, dont just tell me that it is wrong. Thank you all.

BTW, what is a good way to post multiple hands here? Should I just make one very long post for each SNG or somehow break the hands up?

[MicroBob]

posting your hands is the best way to find the flaws in your game.
note: i did not say IF you have flaws in your game....i think we all have them to a greater or lesser degree.


on other HH's there should be a link to bisonbison's hand-converter which will make them easier to read.
if you post more than 1 or 2 HH's in a single post it will be more difficult for others to respond.

anyway....give it a shot....if there are issues with the post-format for some reason they will be happy to tell you.

i'm glad you are taking my advice in the context in which it was intended.
there are many players who would respond 'but i KNOW these were bad-beats and i am simply a superior player to them. so tell me what's going wrong!!'

your open-mindedness indicates you are willing to look into the possiblity that you may have made a mis-play or two and are interested in becoming a better player.

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
I have recently started playing on party, and I have been playing in 10+1 SNGs. Every single one I have played in - about 15 so far- I have suffered a bad beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

You SHOULD be taking bad beats in every SNG you play.

To take round numbers, if you play 10 hands in a typical SNG and are the favorite in 8 of them, and are roughly a 75-25% favorite (say your AK vs. his AJ), then .75^8 =10%
So with those basic assumptions for illustration, YOU

SHOULD BE TAKING BAD BEATS IN 90% OF YOUR TOURNEYS.

Similarly, if you haven't had AA cracked by 33 the last 4 times you played it, then it SHOULD happen this time (on averge). Its only unusual if it doesn't happen.

--greg

[Cosimo]

A few things:

(1) Maybe I didn't explain myself well. My point was that all-ins are very common. There's at least 9 in each SNG. With that many all-ins, there's gonna be some sucking out. Note that when I said "The only way to do that is to win 4 all-ins" I meant hands where either you or your opponent goes all-in.

(2) Poetic license. "KK runs into AA" was shorthand for "your strong hand hits an unlikely stronger one." In the context of the quoted hand, "bad beat" is any hand where a big favorite gets drawn out on. So how does one not get first? I think one of these two will play a big factor--it might not be what knocks you out, but it could be what keeps you from getting chips, or bleeds a lot of chips leaving you short-stacked for a subsequent run of cold cards.

(3) Break-even players will go all-in more than winning players. The tallest stack will never have all of his chips on the line, by definition. Players on a cold streak will also wind up going all-in more often. Hence, I don't think how often a strong winning player goes all-in often is 100% relevant.

(4) I'm willing to bow to your knowledge and experience. I respect your posts here, Bob. However, I don't see winning a SNG without getting lots of your chips from all-ins. When the big blind climbs to 15% of a starting stack but there's still five or more people left, there's a good number of places where I'll push. How do you dectuple up without anyone pushing? Do you rarely win chips from short stacks that go all-in leaving you maybe a reraise to call? Do most of your chips come from uncalled pot bets? I don't see how you could play in a SNG without your opponents frequently going all-in against you, or you going all-in to get them to fold. Nine people are going to be busted, and that pretty much means that the last two players will have busted three others. Throw in some back-and-forth, and I think the winner of a SNG will easily have been involved in four all-in hands.

[charlin]

You may already know about this wonderful site...but still:
http://teamfu.freeshell.org/internet_poker.html

This is an AWESOME resource for Online play. Follow the guides for the 10+1 SNG, Tells, How to keep notes, and be sure to look at the REPLAYS...Most of them are gauged towards 10+1 PP SNG's.

Hope this helps...It's a great site for everyone, You'd be surprised by how bad the players at 10+1 PP SNG's actually play.

Peace

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm willing to bow to your knowledge and experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is easily your first mistake. as i only have SOME knowledge and even LESS experience.

[ QUOTE ]
I respect your posts here, Bob.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks for the compliment. i was trying to think of some clever 'good-gracious why??' type of comment because i'm feeling kind of slappy... but i think i'll leave it at that as your comment was genuine and i was rather crass in my last response to you.


when you said '4 all-in's' i kind of imagined a scenario where i need to hit a double-up 4x to go from 1k chips to 10k.
but yes, including the shorter stacks (and the even shorter 'desperation' stacks) all-in's that you are referring to i agree that you will likely have 4 all-in type 'races' at some point or another if you are going to go on to win the whole thing.


a point that i have made in other threads (and that others are making in this thread) is that people tend to grossly overestimate the meaning of being at a 60% or 70% advantage in a given hand. hellmuth seems to do this A LOT!!


you know you are at an advantage so you already count on having it won in your mind.


but losing a 70-30 battle is not THAT unusual.
if derek jeter gets a base-hit you don't freak out and say 'geez....he's only hitting .300...there was a 70% chance that he wouldn't have gotten a hit there. what we just saw is amazing and significantly against the odds. what a bad-beat for the pitcher.'

if jeter commits an error in the field we're a bit surprised...but we know that his fielding percentage is only 97% or so....so we don't consider it to be 'completely amazing' that we happened to see the other 3% in action.

obviously we've all seen 2-outers or even 1-outers hit on the river where we were anywhere from a 95%-99% favorite.
this means you have the odds significantly on your side...but you are hardly a lock. very similar to Jeter successfully fielding MOST ground-balls....but not ALL of them.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
You must have a very sexy screen name



[/ QUOTE ]

so THAT'S the reason.
on one of the sites i play my name is Bobshugenuts which i think qualifies as VERY sexy. but it is also one of the sites where i have NEVER played an SNG.

i admit that on the sites where i do play SNG's (party, UB, stars) my name is not quite so sexy.

thx for the tip.

[Cosimo]

[ QUOTE ]
but losing a 70-30 battle is not THAT unusual.
if derek jeter gets a base-hit you don't freak out and say 'geez....he's only hitting .300...there was a 70% chance that he wouldn't have gotten a hit there. what we just saw is amazing and significantly against the odds. what a bad-beat for the pitcher.'

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I gotta apologize for contributing to the delinquency of minors here. I think a 'bad beat' is when someone who had no business being in the pot hits a long-shot draw against a very strong hand. Losing a 70% edge is not a bad beat. One doesn't have to get a bad beat to be knocked out of a SNG; there's enough coin tosses and 70-30 advantages lost to put one out.