Playing El Diablo

[Ulysses]

The game is 4-handed at a full table, waiting for suckers. El Diablo has been playing pretty aggressively, but he's no maniac. You've been playing relatively conservatively. You're a 2+2er and he knows that. And he knows you know who he is. So, that's all out of the way. You have KK.

Hero, of course, is El Diablo.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop:
UTG folds, Button folds, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB caps, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero caps, SB calls.

River: (15 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>

Check or bet the river. If you bet and El Diablo raises, 3-bet or call? Comments on other streets welcomed as well.

[ike]

Check and call. I'm scared of you. And AQ isn't unreasonable.

[Clarkmeister]

Betting the river is retarded wtih a capital R.

[Blake Lovely]

check/call

pocket jacks and pocket 10's are possible.
Stop and go on the flop looks pretty scary.
I'm beat way to often to make betting profitable.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Betting the river is retarded wtih a capital R.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if you're worried that El Diablo will check behind w/ AK and then mock you mercilessly for checking your top set like a little girl?

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Betting the river is retarded wtih a capital R.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if you're worried that El Diablo will check behind w/ AK and then mock you mercilessly for checking your top set like a little girl?

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever. El Diablo has AK 0% of the time here.

But I'll play along. Let's say in this fantasy world El Diablo does not have AQ. I mock him for the 8BBs he donated on the first three streets, and I remind him of that fact when he heckles me for missing on one measley river bet.

[bobgreen]

It's Hero's turn cap that is the most telling. He won't cap with a just a flush draw or a pair and a flush draw. He will cap with AQ (including AsQs). He'll also cap with TT, JJ, and planning to take a free river, KJ and AK.

He's not likely to raise the river unless he has AsQs, so the river bet will usually be +1 or -1. Thinking that against the range of hands Hero would play this way, it will more often be +1, I'd bet into the pretty aggressive devil.

[bobgreen]

It's four-handed.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
It's four-handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm well aware of this, thank you.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
It's Hero's turn cap that is the most telling. He won't cap with a just a flush draw or a pair and a flush draw. He will cap with AQ (including AsQs). He'll also cap with TT, JJ, and planning to take a free river, KJ and AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you think El Diablo puts you on?

[ QUOTE ]
He's not likely to raise the river unless he has AsQs

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa. You don't think he's going to raise you with any AQ? Really?

[1800GAMBLER]

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif how much are you up vs 2+2er now?

Check the river.

[Gabe]

[ QUOTE ]
Whoa. You don't think he's going to raise you with any AQ? Really?

[/ QUOTE ]

Certainly any AQ that includes either the Ac or the Qc.

[bobgreen]

He puts me on either something better than top two or a pair + flush draw.

Yeah, I'll change my tune...he'll certainly raise AsQx or AxQs and unless I've been hyperaggressive with draws he'll raise with any AQ. (Bobgreen would be a little more timid in the latter case--but he's getting better.)

I'm devaluing hands quite a bit because it's shorthanded. I figure El Diablo doesn't need the nuts to push that hard and he doesn't necessarily give me credit for third/second nuts for my aggression. I'd also imagine the mutual 2+2 respect might also lower both guys raising standards.

[TimTimSalabim]

I think Diablo is 75% a smaller set, 25% AQ. I don't think Diablo would raise the flop that often here with the nuts, even given the flush draw. Bet, then just call a raise.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think Diablo would raise the flop that often here with the nuts, even given the flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]
Think again.

[bicyclekick]

I guess I'm retarded, but I'd still probably bet and call a raise.

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
What if you're worried that El Diablo will check behind w/ AK and then mock you mercilessly for checking your top set like a little girl?

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone that worries about being mocked at a poker table shouldn't be there.

You have been inhaling too much of the smoke and fumes in your own lair 'El Diablo'. You need to clear your head.

Mockery is only too often mere poverty of wit. - Jean De La Bruyere

[TimTimSalabim]

I thought this was a forum for intelligent discussion of poker hands, not for flip comments like "think again" and "betting the river is retarded". My mistake.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I think Diablo is 75% a smaller set, 25% AQ. I don't think Diablo would raise the flop that often here with the nuts, even given the flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having played with him pretty often, I'd think that he would. The reason is because he knows the flop is very likely to have hit his opponent.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought this was a forum for intelligent discussion of poker hands, not for flip comments like "think again" and "betting the river is retarded". My mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was "Betting the river is retarded with a capital R.", tyvm.

[Lawrence Ng]

I usually do not comment on hands,

But if I were you El Diablo, I would bet the river and call a check-raise.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
What if you're worried that El Diablo will check behind w/ AK and then mock you mercilessly for checking your top set like a little girl?

[/ QUOTE ]

Then, I would sneak up behind El Diablo with a metal folding chair and whack him upside the head.

Olé!!!

[Schneids]

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Schneids is SB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="CC3333">UTG <font color="purple">(El Diablo)</font> raises</font>, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">Schneids 3-bets</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG <font color="purple">(El Diablo)</font> caps</font>, Schneids calls.

Flop: (9 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Schneids checks, <font color="CC3333">El Diablo bets</font>, Schneids calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Schneids checks, <font color="CC3333">El Diablo bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Schneids raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">El Diablo 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Schneids caps</font>, El Diablo calls.

River: (13.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Schneids bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">El Diablo raises</font>, Schneids calls.

Final Pot: 17.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 17.50 BB, between Schneids and El Diablo.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by El Diablo (17.50 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Schneids shows Ac Ks (straight, ace high).
El Diablo shows Jh Kh (flush, king high).
Outcome: El Diablo wins 17.50 BB. </font>



In summary: Anything other than a check and call on the river in this hand El Devil has presented is not wise IMO.

[Schneids]

Do we have the Kd?

This would help in eliminating AdKd as one of your potential hands, Diablo.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
...then I would sneak up behind El Diablo with a metal folding chair and whack him upside the head.

[/ QUOTE ]
Eh, old news. That happened twice at Commerce last month.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
Do we have the Kd?

This would help in eliminating AdKd as one of your potential hands, Diablo.

[/ QUOTE ]

And to clarify why I ask: If my KK doesn't contain a diamond, I think that might just very well be enough to bet the river. I would have to know recent past hands at this table though to determine whether it's possible you wouldn't cap the flop with AdKd, since I'm pretty sure your default line would be to do so. If you've been constantly spraying chips on the flop in recent hands, I think you'd be more inclined to call the flop 3-bet with AdKd.

[TimTimSalabim]

Ah, new information. This example runs counter to Diablo's claim that he's "no maniac". Now I have to seriously consider that he might have capped the turn with a pair and a flush/straight draw. I change my answer to check/call.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
You have been inhaling too much of the smoke and fumes in your own lair 'El Diablo'. You need to clear your head.


[/ QUOTE ]

Zeno, you are treading on thin ice, my good friend.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think Diablo is 75% a smaller set, 25% AQ. I don't think Diablo would raise the flop that often here with the nuts, even given the flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having played with him pretty often, I'd think that he would. The reason is because he knows the flop is very likely to have hit his opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Nate, FU. I don't want to play you anymore.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What if you're worried that El Diablo will check behind w/ AK and then mock you mercilessly for checking your top set like a little girl?

[/ QUOTE ]

Then, I would sneak up behind El Diablo with a metal folding chair and whack him upside the head.

Olé!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Well done, sir.

[Ulysses]

Man, that was a tough river for you, dude.

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
I think Diablo is 75% a smaller set, 25% AQ. I don't think Diablo would raise the flop that often here with the nuts, even given the flush draw. Bet, then just call a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's awful analysis. He'd play both hands the same up untill this point thus making AQ way way more likely. Infact right around the time the solid player 3 bets the turn he'll just call with TT JJ.

[Baulucky]

[ QUOTE ]
Check or bet the river. If you bet and El Diablo raises, 3-bet or call? Comments on other streets welcomed as well.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'd bet and call if raised.

[ QUOTE ]
El Diablo has been playing pretty aggressively, but he's no maniac.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was a maniac in this hand, imo.

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]


He was a maniac in this hand, imo.

[/ QUOTE ]


WWWWHAT? That's all dependant on his hand!

Honestly, he has AQ. Everybody just feckin' check. More importantly when you check wtf is he going to do with TT JJ? He'll bet!

[Baulucky]

Are you 12-tabling yet?.

I'll enjoy seeing him muck his JJ. Thanks for your advice anyway.

[Clarkmeister]

"He was a maniac in this hand, imo. "

If he had TT he definitely was. JJ like you suggest he had isn't quite maniacal, but he without a doubt gave excessive action.

[B Dids]

The stop and go action on the flop/turn screams AQ. I think you have to check the river.

Is AKd out of the question here? Backs off then comes to life when the flush draw presents itself?

[DiceyPlay]

If I'm playing relatively conservative I know that mrDevilMan knows this. Therefore he may get a little more aggressive with his semi-bluff's. I also know that my hand is well defined in his mind - AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs. I also know that he has been as aggressive as me on this hand and that he has been aggressive at the table meaning that he could have the same hands plus a couple more especially since he knows I'm a relatively conservative (he may think he can bet me off my hand) - add AQ, AQs, KQs to his possible holdings. I know he can't have KQ of spades with Ks on board. He knows that if I have a pocket pair, which is 99.5% probable in his mind, I can't have a flush on the river. I have to put him on JJ or AQ with AQ being more likely only because it's more likely mathematically (12 vs 6). I'm gonna check call here. But I would of been in check call mode after El Diablo raises my turn bet unless I improve on the river.

[tolbiny]

THin Ice?

Is hell frezzeing over then?

[1800GAMBLER]

Trust me. He doesn't have JJ or TT 66% of the time. You are wrong.

[Baulucky]

[ QUOTE ]
Trust me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah.

[ QUOTE ]
He doesn't have JJ or TT 66% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very accurate estimation!.

[ QUOTE ]
You are wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been known to be wrong, on occassion. I'd still bet.

[Zeno]

Zeno always knows how thin the ice is; El Diablo’s, at present, too cloudy head lacks the proper discernment as to thickness of said ice.


Olé!!! says Zeno to his old masked friend, as He treads on ice that starts to creak and crack.

-Zeno

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
Is hell frezzeing [sic] over then?

[/ QUOTE ]


Dante places Lucifer (El Diablo) in the lowest circle of the pit of hell. Lucifer is encased in ice, forever immovable and fixed. Zeno can easily skate about with ease and impunity mocking El Diablo mercilessly. El Diablo is powerless and can only fret and fume about His fixed fate- a fate He doomed himself to – When He donned the Evil Mask.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/smirk.gif /images/graemlins/wink.gif

-Zeno

[1800GAMBLER]

If he doesn't have TT JJ more than 66% what reasons are you giving? That 66% stuff doesn't even apply since he'll bet TT JJ 100% of the time when you check! He needs to have TT JJ 66% of the time and will check it behind on the river, none of which are true here.

I think betting here is a full -$60 EV move, which is huge when comparing it to most +EV plays. He has AQ 100% of the time. Hopefully El D will say what hands he'll play this way when he replies and what he'd do with TT JJ on the river if checked to.

[Baulucky]

[ QUOTE ]
If he doesn't have TT JJ more than 66% what reasons are you giving?

[/ QUOTE ]

He has JJ or worse this time (TT, AA maybe?), that's my reason. I can't explain why.

[cero_z]

Hi El Diablo,
[ QUOTE ]
The game is 4-handed at a full table, waiting for suckers.

[/ QUOTE ]
While El Diablo is busy waiting for suckers, cero_z notes that he plays with no one but suckers, it seems, at PP. As soon as you are not at a table where one of your opponents plays quite badly, move to another table, play your nut hand fast against them, and accept their challenge to play heads up.
And SB, check-call the river with your set, since you're against El Diablo. If you weren't, you would bet and happily call a raise.

[TimTimSalabim]

[ QUOTE ]
That 66% stuff doesn't even apply since he'll bet TT JJ 100% of the time when you check!

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet TT on the river? What hand do you think will call you that you can beat?

[1800GAMBLER]

If a player is aggressive enough to cap TT on the turn, he's betting it on the river when checked to.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I also know that my hand is well defined in his mind

[/ QUOTE ]

That's key to this hand.

[Ulysses]

Preflop:

SB raises. This means he has a decent hand. I have [Ad, Qc], so I 3-bet. Opponent caps it from SB, so now I know he has something good - a big pair or AK probably. Maybe he's getting a little aggro w/ a smaller pair or KQs or something, but I don't think so. As I mentioned, he had been playing somewhat conservatively and I hadn't been getting out of line very much.

Flop: (8 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>

OK. That's a good flop for me. SB may have been screwing around, but there's a really good chance he hit this flop (or has AA), so I raise. He 3-bets, so I just call so he'll lead the turn.

Turn: (7 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>

SB bets as expected. At this point, he could have AK, AA, KQ, a whole bunch of stuff. I raise. I would do this with any set, AdKd, two pair, and maybe JsQs or regular AK. Now, he 3-bets. At this point, I think there's still a slight chance of AA, but on that board, I'm really thinking he has a set. Quite likely top set. And I still cap. That really screams out AQ. Maybe JJ. That's pretty much it. I hope for the board not to pair.

River: (15 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>

That's not a good card for my opponent. On the off-chance I was screwing around w/ a big draw, I got there. If I had AQ, nothing changes. His only hope is that I had JJ or TT. I thought this was an easy check for KK, which I thought he had (and did indeed have). He bet, I was sure he didn't have a flush so I raised, and he called. Had he 3-bet, I would have capped. Given the way we had been playing against each other, he didn't have a flush.

The most likely hands for my opponent are KK/JJ/TT. Had I had JJ and he checked, I would think there's enough of a chance of TT or AA or AdKd and probably made a thin value bet. With TT, I probably would have checked behind most of the time.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's say in this fantasy world El Diablo does not have AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

[mike l.]

maybe i read too quick but i found it interesting that you never once considered AsQs for your opponent. el diablo i think clarkmeister pretty much skewered you on this one. this was not a very interesting thread and i know you can do much better. try again please.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
maybe i read too quick but i found it interesting that you never once considered AsQs for your opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's quite unlikely that he 4-bet me pre-flop w/ AQ.

[ QUOTE ]
this was not a very interesting thread and i know you can do much better. try again please.

[/ QUOTE ]

Go be useful and make some more recommendations for tasty hot dog choices at Pink's or something.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
While El Diablo is busy waiting for suckers, cero_z notes that he plays with no one but suckers, it seems, at PP. As soon as you are not at a table where one of your opponents plays quite badly, move to another table, play your nut hand fast against them, and accept their challenge to play heads up.

[/ QUOTE ]

The table was 4-handed, so El Diablo had 3 suckers already. Olé!!!

[TimTimSalabim]

Of course he had AQ or he wouldn't have posted the hand. But I was trying to play along with only the information that the SB had. Cheaters! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
Betting the river is retarded wtih a capital R.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't we just say betting the river is special? C'mon, my little bro is a retard.