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plj8624
07-10-2004, 10:13 PM
I am an investor and poker player and I wanted to share a couple thoughts on the relationship between investing and gambling.

First I want to relay a story about an opportunity that came at the wrong time for me to take advantage of it. It is late 2002/early 2003 and I hear about a preferred stock called American Airlines Public Interest notes (NYSE: AAR). It is one of those $25 par value preferred stocks that pays a fixed dividend that the company is obligated to pay and can only get out of if they are bankrupt. At the time, American Airlines was having a lot of difficulty and it was looking doubtful as to whether they could stave off bankruptcy. I am a conservative investor and it looked too risky for me at the time. I wish I had had an understanding of pot odds... At its low point of $2 a share, AAR was offering investors an immediate 5:1 return if they could avoid bankruptcy (i.e. it would shoot up to $10 just if they survived). Odds of them surviving were not totally clear but were probably even money in the best case and at worst about 2:1 or 3:1 against. It would have been a good bet. Furthermore, if they do survive, the longer term implied odds were as high as 12:1 or 15:1. As it turns out, AAR now floats around $18 to $20 a share which meant a 9:1 or 10:1 return on investment. This is not merely results-oriented thinking. It was a bet with positive expectation that I passed on that worked out. Now, I wouldn't go betting my whole investment bankroll on such a risky proposition, but I should have risked perhaps a percent or two.

The next point I want to bring up has to do with options. Options are, on their face, bets about prices within a certain time frame. Most of them are sucker bets, but occasionally you might find good bets with +EV. Another interesting way to play options is through selling covered calls. This is when you sell call options on stock that you already own, hoping it doesn't reach the strike price in time and that you get to pocket the option premium. This too can be looked at in terms of odds and EV.

Basically, investing is a lot like gambling although usually the swings aren't as dramatic.

Any thoughts?

adios
07-11-2004, 12:36 AM
[ QUOTE ]
First I want to relay a story about an opportunity that came at the wrong time for me to take advantage of it. It is late 2002/early 2003 and I hear about a preferred stock called American Airlines Public Interest notes (NYSE: AAR). It is one of those $25 par value preferred stocks that pays a fixed dividend that the company is obligated to pay and can only get out of if they are bankrupt. At the time, American Airlines was having a lot of difficulty and it was looking doubtful as to whether they could stave off bankruptcy. I am a conservative investor and it looked too risky for me at the time. I wish I had had an understanding of pot odds... At its low point of $2 a share, AAR was offering investors an immediate 5:1 return if they could avoid bankruptcy (i.e. it would shoot up to $10 just if they survived). Odds of them surviving were not totally clear but were probably even money in the best case and at worst about 2:1 or 3:1 against. It would have been a good bet. Furthermore, if they do survive, the longer term implied odds were as high as 12:1 or 15:1. As it turns out, AAR now floats around $18 to $20 a share which meant a 9:1 or 10:1 return on investment. This is not merely results-oriented thinking. It was a bet with positive expectation that I passed on that worked out. Now, I wouldn't go betting my whole investment bankroll on such a risky proposition, but I should have risked perhaps a percent or two.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW good thinking.

[ QUOTE ]
The next point I want to bring up has to do with options. Options are, on their face, bets about prices within a certain time frame. Most of them are sucker bets, but occasionally you might find good bets with +EV. Another interesting way to play options is through selling covered calls. This is when you sell call options on stock that you already own, hoping it doesn't reach the strike price in time and that you get to pocket the option premium. This too can be looked at in terms of odds and EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW not good thinking. Options are supposedly priced to be 0 EV without commissions more or less. Covered calls have the same risk profile as shorting puts which usually involve tying up less capital and fewer transactions costs.

crazy canuck
07-11-2004, 04:25 AM
Many hedge funds buy distressed comapnies (don't know how many but it's one of the major strategies they use), so you're right, this can be definitely +EV if you know what you're doing.

Trading options directionally can be tricky. Not only you have to be right about the direction of the underlying, but also when the move is gonna happen. Look up time value of options.

SumZero
07-12-2004, 01:13 AM
At their heart options are useful for controlling for risk. You can use options to dramatically increase or decrease your risk as compared to trading the underlieing good the option is for.

midas
07-12-2004, 10:43 AM
PLJ:

Investing in the stock market is all about information - all the current information about a Company is reflected in the price of a security at any given time. There are people who reseach companies all day to determine the probable direction of an investment. Also, there are people who focus their whole career following certain industries like airlines.

At that point in time all of the publically available information (which I'm sure you read /images/graemlins/smile.gif) pointed to an AA bankruptcy. For all you know - AA lawyers could have actually drawn up the legal docs and were at the courthouse stairs ready to file backruptcy. At this point, your investment is priced like a longshot at the track. AA bankruptcy is the big favorite and is getting at 2:5. Alas, the entire travel market begins to recover and AA does not file - the longshot comes in.

The problem with this type of investing (playing a hunch) is that if you had actually researched this investment and then posted your odds - you might have been on the other side of the tracks with the rest of the market.

Remember, 95%+ of the professional investors don't beat the S&P 500 over the long-term (5+ years).