Coming in Between Blinds

[David Sklansky]

For your first hand, some casinos allow you to pass the big blind. Then when the button is on you immediate right you can post a big blind with a small blind and a big blind to your left. The button skips over you on the next hand. Is this the better option for you, EV wise when there is no rake and the small blind is half the big?

(This may have been discussed before but I missed it.)

[SinCityGuy]

This is my preferred method of posting. For the same price, you get an extra hand compared to posting a late position blind.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
This is my preferred method of posting. For the same price, you get an extra hand compared to posting a late position blind.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I"ve beeen doing as well. Intuitively, it seems like the best option.

[The Dude]

When I started making regular trips to Vegas, I did just thah - I posted behind the blinds. But then I decided to look into it a little.

The difference between posting in the BB and posting behind the blinds is that you play 2 extra hands: the SB and the button. Well, the SB doesn't really cost you a full 1/2 SB, because you occaisionally win. So the real question is, do you win more by playing the button than you lose by playing the SB.

I won't disclose my exact numbers, but my PokerTracker stats clearly indicate coming in on the BB and playing the two extra hands. (In a 20-40 game it would cost me almost $2.)

The softer the game, the more pronounced this difference will become, since each hand you could potentially play becomes worth more.

Now, as to whether posting in the BB is better than posting in the CO, that's a whole 'nuther debate. But I do believe that posting in the BB is better than posting behind the blinds. I do have less than 100k hands in my database, so I can't be 100% sure based on these numbers, but it's what I'm going by for now.

[ACPlayer]

Case 1: When I play at FW as a new player they let me post the BB and SB (there is no other blind for that hand) and then get the button on the next hand or post just the BB behind the button.

I always post just the BB behind the button. I dont think the decision is a close one.

Case 2: If I have missed my blinds, FW lets me post the BB and SB with the button to the immediate right and no other blinds. I then get the button. Alternately I can make up both the blinds after the button (in the CO) by posting the BB and the SB.

In the loose FW games I always choose to post the make up blinds behind the button (that is not buy the button). That decision may be closer. I however prefer to take my dead money hand in late position rather than in early position, when I have my choice.

[GuyOnTilt]

The difference between posting in the BB and posting behind the blinds is that you play 2 extra hands: the SB and the button. Well, the SB doesn't really cost you a full 1/2 SB, because you occaisionally win. So the real question is, do you win more by playing the button than you lose by playing the SB.

That's not the real question because you gain 3 extra hands by posting your BB versus a live CO blind. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

GoT

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is my preferred method of posting. For the same price, you get an extra hand compared to posting a late position blind.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I"ve beeen doing as well. Intuitively, it seems like the best option.

[/ QUOTE ]

i usually wait a whole round untill it's my big blind, while playing my best poker on the other 13 tables...

j/k. i also like this option in live games /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Clarkmeister]

I'd much rather have my blind in position than out of position. I always post behind the button.

[J.A.Sucker]

In a passive game, say the Bay 101 20-40, I'll post in front of the button, but in a more aggressive one, say the 40-80, I'll post behind the button.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
That's not the real question because you gain 3 extra hands by posting your BB versus a live CO blind.

[/ QUOTE ]
The 'real question' has nothing to do with BB vs. CO. He asked about posting behind the blinds, stupid.

[Noo Yawk]

[ QUOTE ]
In a passive game, say the Bay 101 20-40, I'll post in front of the button, but in a more aggressive one, say the 40-80, I'll post behind the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do exactly the same thing. I don't mind playing 2 random cards up front with no raise. But if I have to defend, I like to play my hand in back.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd much rather have my blind in position than out of position. I always post behind the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

That Clarky does a lot of things like El Diablo.

[GuyOnTilt]

Crap. I misread. I suck at being a dick.

GoT

[astroglide]

for a typical b&m game, definitely behind the button. if you're gaining 1 hand by going the other way you're putting money in out of position. it costs $3 per hand in 20/40, and the penalty for playing out of position vs the benefit of playing with position is MUCH larger than $3.

[Rick Nebiolo]

in your question above i see three options (numbers 1) thru 3) below) and at the bicycle casino's top section (which includes the baby no limit) you have all three of these options and also have option 4) below:

1) post the big blind, next hand post the small blind, then get the button. this of course is acceptable everywhere.

2) let the blinds pass and post the big blind with the button on your immediate right (you post between the small blind and button). next hand the button skips over you and moves to your left. you described this above.

3) wait until the blinds and button passes you and post the big blind behind. this is usually acceptable everywhere (however if you have a seat locked up in a new game you must take the big blind or be forced to post both blinds after passing it)

4) at the bike anyone (new or old player) can buy the button.

since i work at the bike i always post a blind asap even if i give up a little ev.

i do think that posting inside is a little better because with three blinds out you entice multi-way action and a raise tends to be made by a real hand. with multi way action you usually have a relatively easy decision whether to call, reraise or fold and imo you want to keep decisions simple when you first sit down.

btw, i remember a discussion about three years ago regarding buy the button versus posting behind (button to your left) and if memory serves me (lately it doesn't) you were involved.

~ rick

[Gabe]

It seems better to me to have your money in with second to best position that worst.

If one were given a choice as to where to post there blinds without the extra hand, I’m sure all would agree that is far better to post after the button. The extra hand in worst position doesn’t make up for it.

I would guess that there is at least a .03BB advantage in posting from behind.

I think that the cut-off position is close to break-even with the forced bet. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was slightly profitable.

Of course, the difference would be less in passive games, but I don’t believe enough to make coming in between a better choice.

[Gabe]

Last week, at a 25/50 game, we where six handed, and I was the only one who had not posted a blind. (There were four big blinds and one small blind.)

I had Jd 7d on the button. Should I have raised?

[Deorum]

I am in agreement with those who say it is better to post
in late position, as the position more than makes up for the
extra hand that you lose by playing your post up front.

[Deorum]

A quick calculation: let's say you expect to earn $30/hr in
a 15-30 game, and the dealer can get out 30 hands/hr. That
is an average of $1 per hand. Then the question is this:
is having a blind hand in the CO worth the extra $1 that you
are giving up by not posting before the button? I think
clearly this is worth 1/30 of a BB.

[MMMMMM]

I would be inclined to do it that way as well, at least in a B&M game. However I'll guess that Dynasty is right and that the extra hand you get plus the fact that others must post more $ on your blind makes the early post superior from a pure EV perspective. Therefore next time I confront this choice I may well switch. Of course that may be many moons from now.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd much rather have my blind in position than out of position. I always post behind the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see the merit in this, but I'm not sure if it's better than posting in front of the button.

The benefit of posting in front of the button is that you get an extra hand. You are correct in pointing out the positional disadvantage, but this only applies to post-flop play. Preflop, you get to act late and see where everyone else stands (except the two blinds).

[Rick Nebiolo]

Let's assume David is asking for a comparison between posting between the button and small blind (a.k.a., posting inside) versus waiting for the blinds to pass and posting with the button on your left (a.k.a. posting behind).

When evaluating posting inside you have to combine the EV of the hand you must post a blind for out of position AND the EV of the hand you now get to play in your cutoff without posting.

When posting behind you calculate/estimate the EV of the hand you play in the cutoff by posting.

Of course David could be asking for a comparison between taking both blinds and button versus posting inside - as usual he doesn't make it clear /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

~ Rick

[mike l.]

all i know is i heard that posting behind was created because sklansky back in the day would consistently just miss his blind and come in behind for free.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
all i know is i heard that posting behind was created because sklansky back in the day would consistently just miss his blind and come in behind for free.

[/ QUOTE ]

and posting inside and buy the button were created to give player's more options that are fair and gets them in action more quickly.

anyway, hawaiian gardens had a guy who beat sklansky. there you didn't have to post in bottom section. when it was busy this one guy would hang out the green and upper blue chip games and find open seats, get dealt his five or six free hands, then get up on his blind and hang out some more. he probably played thousands of hands and took no more than a dozen or so blinds.

i found out he was cambodian, about 50 (but looked 65) and weighed about 60 pounds. you could tell he had seen some [censored] back there. he became sort of an institution/ mascot at the club. i think his name was "Nam" and he passed away a year or two ago. he was a legend i'll never forget.

~ rick

[JimRivett]

all i know is i heard that posting behind was created because sklansky back in the day would consistently just miss his blind and come in behind for free.

I heard the same story from an Asian guy, a retired stock broker, apparently he used to play with David at the Sahara Tahoe, now the Horizon.

[JimRivett]

He was also only about 4 foot tall. It's funny you bring this up, last night at the Bike I was talking to another 2+2er about this guy, I always referred to him as the man who never paid a blind.

[elysium]

hi mr. sklansky

i've never heard of postiing both between the SB and button, with a BB on the left. i'm only familiar with the method which allows you to post both blinds before the button wherein you are the only blind, and therefore act last on the pre-flop. then, on the next hand, you get the button. the SB in this instance can't be raised.

that's the only preferrable method, IMO, over posting the BB in the CO, for the reasons listed by rick. in that method of posting, you wait until the button is passed by you, putting you in CO position, and because of the presence of at least two other blinds, your decisions in the hand are provided mathematical assistance, and are easier. additionally, you are never forced to act first unless it's a 3-way. the only reason i prefer the previous described method of buying the button, is that you act last on the pre-flop, and have the button on the next hand. i'm not sure about it being the better method of posting, however. the other players and the dealers all say it's the best way to do it. and i never thought about it, but actually the button told me that it was the best way to post, and no one contradicted him when he told me. maybe no one was paying attention. but he gained position when i bought the button, and acted next to last on the pre-flop, that little button guy. well, this much is for sure; the previously described method of buying the button appears to be better at least for the button.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
He was also only about 4 foot tall.

[/ QUOTE ]

heck, if he weighed only about 60 pounds like i said, how could he be more than about 4 foot tall? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Don Olney]

I do not think the EV is give or take that much to worry about it. I do like to post here when there is no rake. It gets me into a hand, I get one extra hand before my blinds do come up, and with paying time, I like the extra play before the dealer change.

[Lottery Larry]

This isn't the real topic, but I ask anyway.

Why do cardrooms prevent you from posting as an extra blind in between the button and SB? Or on the button?

I miss the BB. Player A to my left is the new SB, player B two to my left is the BB on the next hand. Player C, to my right, is the button. What is wrong with me coming in after the SB position and posting my 1 1/2 blind bet?
Why is this different than if I wait two hands and have to post extra blinds from a BETTER position- the cutoff?

Alternate example- why can't you post on the button with the 1 1/2 blind bet? Why are you required to skip the button and wait a hand?

(Sorry if I intruded- found this on a search on David's name)
LL

[WhipMeBeatMe]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd much rather have my blind in position than out of position. I always post behind the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think David was questioning whether you should post in front of or behind the button. How is that even debateable? You post in front of the button and get an extra hand. Unless you have a tendency to overdefend the blinds, I don't see how getting an extra hand hurts.

I interpreted David's question as asking whether it is better to post in front of the button and forgo the button or to take the blinds and get the button.

My guess is that it would be better to take the blinds in a very good game (loose/passive) game but not in a tight or even a loose/aggressive one. For the price of the SB, you get to play two additional hands - one additional blind hand and the button.

[WhipMeBeatMe]

[ QUOTE ]
for a typical b&m game, definitely behind the button. if you're gaining 1 hand by going the other way you're putting money in out of position. it costs $3 per hand in 20/40, and the penalty for playing out of position vs the benefit of playing with position is MUCH larger than $3.

[/ QUOTE ]

The penalty is the same. It's called the blind and it is the same $ amount regardless of your position. Disregarding the blind, all positions should be positive EV positions unless you have leaks in your game. Therefore, if you have to post to get into a game, it is always better to get an extra hand.

[astroglide]

you're ignoring the value of playing with position. the blind is the same, but the ev of your random hand will be higher.

[WhipMeBeatMe]

[ QUOTE ]
you're ignoring the value of playing with position. the blind is the same, but the ev of your random hand will be higher.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not ignoring the value of position. The EV of your random hand will be higher with position, of course. That does not mean the EV of your random hand will be negative without position.

Why wouldn't you want to play an extra hand?! If someone said to you, you can pay $20 and get a hand... or you can pay $20 and get that same hand PLUS another hand out of position? Do you say no because you don't like to play hands out of position?

[astroglide]

i feel i already stated how i feel about this pretty clearly. random hand in the 3rd blind + 1 extra hand < random in the cutoff in terms of overall money made.

your example doesn't seem correct to me because the $20 hand is the one that you are forced to play, which in this case would be the one that is out of position. you are not getting a hand in position for a forced $20 and then another one out.