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Monty Cantsin

07-09-2004, 08:34 PM

Been playing limit for a while now and just starting out in NL. As a total novice I'll be happy to sit at the kids' table once you guys get that worked out. In the meantime I would love to get some beginner's tips.

Eventually, of course, I want to master the fine art of big bet psychomanipulation but my immediate goal is to understand the NL ABC's.

To set the scene: the low stakes online games I'm in seem pretty passive, I'm not seeing all that much raising pre-flop and very little re-raising. Post flop I see a lot of underbetting and a lot of calling. I guess this is typical?

I'm limping way more than I do in limit. Then I tighten up considerably on the flop. Hands that in limit might rate a speculative call or raise (like bottom pair A kicker) I'm dumping.

My raising hands are similar to those I have in limit. Although sometimes when it's 3 or 4 limpers to me I'll limp with a hand I always raise in limit, like AQ or KJs. I'm not sure why I'm doing this and it's probably a mistake, but I guess I'm thinking in limit a big percentage of this kind of hand's value comes from pre-flop and in NL the value really comes post flop. Am I close? (I do raise these first in or after 1 or 2 limpers.)

My standard raise is 4x BB, which seems higher than most other people's. Should I adjust this to be "table standard"?

When I bet the flop after a PFR and no unusual pre-flop action it's usually pot-sized.

I usually follow up on pre-flop raises regardless of the flop, and I will sometimes take a stab at pots that no-one seems interested in, but I'm pretty quick to release an ok hand to substantial pressure. I'm not looking for marginal hands that I can play well, I'm looking for great hands that can bust stacks and I'm willing to wait for them.

The phrase that keeps rolling around my head is something I read in a post by limon: "I'm looking for 'to the felt' value".

Do I need any drastic adjustments to these starting parameters?

To make up for my lack of experience I have excellent card-catching skills. Here are two AA hands from this afternoon's session, how'd I do?

Hand 1, table is loose/passive. Villain is the table big stack, tighter than most and seemingly more sober.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP2 ($23.75)
MP3 ($23)
CO ($67.60)
Button ($10.55)
SB ($12)
BB ($10.65)
Monty ($35.95)
UTG+1 ($47.70)
MP1 ($22.50)

Preflop: Monty is UTG with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Monty raises to $2, UTG+1 calls $2, 6 folds, BB calls $1,50.

Flop: ($6.25) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Monty bets $5, UTG+1 calls $5, BB folds.

Turn: ($16.25) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Monty bets $28.95 (All-In), UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: $45.20
Main Pot: $16.25, won by Monty.
Pot 2: $28.95, returned to Monty.

Results in white below: 
No showdown. Monty wins $45.20. 

Hand 2, same table, both opponents very loose/passive, haven't seen either of them do much tangling.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

BB ($27.95)
UTG ($28.70)
UTG+1 ($22.32)
UTG+2 ($92.90)
MP1 ($4.85)
MP2 ($22)
MP3 ($12.58)
Monty ($37.15)
Button ($18.25)
SB ($11.35)

Preflop: Monty is CO with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
3 folds, MP1 calls $0, MP2 raises to $2, MP3 calls $2, Monty raises to $5, 3 folds,50, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $3, MP3 calls $3.

Flop: ($16.25) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
MP2 checks, MP3 bets $7.58 (All-In), Monty raises to $15.16, MP2 folds.

Turn: ($38.99) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($38.99) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $38.99
Main Pot: $31.41, between MP3 and Monty. > Pot won by Monty ($31.41).
Pot 2: $7.58, returned to Monty.

Results in white below: 
MP3 shows Qc Ks (two pair, kings and threes).
Monty shows As Ac (two pair, aces and threes).
Outcome: Monty wins $38.99. 

Thanks for any and all feedback or suggestions.

/mc

Monty Cantsin

07-10-2004, 02:56 PM

What is this, an audience or an oil painting? But seriously folks...

I'll try with a more concise question:

Pre-flop raise, do you have one standard amount you raise, like 4x or 6x the bb, or do you adjust this amount based on table texture, position, etc.?

thanks.

/mc

Leo Bello

07-10-2004, 03:18 PM

There was a thread no more than 2 weeks ago, covering this subject. A search would maybe help you.
I adjust from table to table. But after I decide what is going to be my raise for the table I tend to stick with it. As a parameter, 4x BB seems nice. But in some tables I tend to bet the pot.

unagi

07-10-2004, 05:06 PM

although i'm still relatively new to no-limit (1 year, on and off, but was playing mostly $5 tournaments up until recently), i would say that if you know situation 1 has a tight player calling you... that, unless you're scared of him catching a set with a PP or his 10s or whatever else, your bet is a little strong. if he's as tight as you say, it's unlikely that he's calling with a runner-runner spade draw, and the only way he would call you on your bet is with a better hand than yours (or perhaps QQ, KK - but i don't see any reason to believe that he has those). i would probably opt for deception, or keep the bets low.

situation 2, possibly a good move. i most likely would've called, but hey.. i've done that plenty of times and seen players catch their flush due to my lack of aggression.

Monty Cantsin

07-10-2004, 05:45 PM

Yeah, It's going to be a while before I really understand the language of big bet and what different amounts mean. My turn bet in hand 1 was me screaming "OK, I'm ready for the hand to be over, make it stop now!". In retrospect I can see how I could have gotten much greater value at much less risk.

Thanks for the feedback.

/mc

JohnG

07-10-2004, 07:20 PM

Preflop raising, I think between a total bet of 3X, 3.5X, and 4X BB is best, or about the pot size if there are limpers. For example, a $2 blind means raise to $6 is 3X BB, rather than raising another $6.

For a re-raise, tripling the total bet size is a good approximation. e.g. raised to 400, you reraise to 1200.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm limping way more than I do in limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good questions to consider in deciding whether to enter the pot-
can you win a big pot
can you win if you miss

Also consider what hands you want in against you, and what hands you want out.

[ QUOTE ]
My raising hands are similar to those I have in limit. Although sometimes when it's 3 or 4 limpers to me I'll limp with a hand I always raise in limit, like AQo or KJs. I'm not sure why I'm doing this and it's probably a mistake,

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising would be dangerous. There are quite a few hands I'd raise there, but AQ and KJs are not them. I'd prefer to raise with a small pair or suited connectors, depending on character of limpers and depth of money.

Looking at your hand history, the money is too short to raise limpers with the small pairs or suited connectors. And I wouldnt raise with AQo or KJs, although the AQo would depend on the overall situation on this depth of money. i.e. position of limpers and their character, and how likely I am to get button with a raise.

[ QUOTE ]
but I guess I'm thinking in limit a big percentage of this kind of hand's value comes from pre-flop and in NL the value really comes post flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

The danger is flopping a dominated hand. Tough to win a big pot when you raise 4 limpers with AQ or KJ. Raising here can lose you your entire stack on this depth of money due to so little wiggle room, where you would have been able to get away by limping. Although, on this shallowness of the money, and assumed lesser quality of opponents, you may win a big pot raising the AQ.

[ QUOTE ]
Am I close? (I do raise these first in or after 1 or 2 limpers.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't even normally raise that many limpers with these hands. Nor maybe first in either.

[ QUOTE ]
My standard raise is 4x BB, which seems higher than most other people's. Should I adjust this to be "table standard"?

[/ QUOTE ]

3-4 is about right.

[ QUOTE ]
When I bet the flop after a PFR and no unusual pre-flop action it's usually pot-sized.

[/ QUOTE ]

Usally the best size until you learn when to bet more or less this amount. Given the size of stacks, the best flop bet may also be allin depending on preflop action and thus pot/stack ratios on flop. There isn't much wiggle room.

[ QUOTE ]
I usually follow up on pre-flop raises regardless of the flop, and I will sometimes take a stab at pots that no-one seems interested in, but I'm pretty quick to release an ok hand to substantial pressure. I'm not looking for marginal hands that I can play well, I'm looking for great hands that can bust stacks and I'm willing to wait for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds OK.

[ QUOTE ]
The phrase that keeps rolling around my head is something I read in a post by limon: "I'm looking for 'to the felt' value".

[/ QUOTE ]

You have the idea. Though you seem to be playing with a pretty short stacks, and this will change the 'to the felt value' of hands compared to much deeper money.

soah

07-10-2004, 07:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My raising hands are similar to those I have in limit. Although sometimes when it's 3 or 4 limpers to me I'll limp with a hand I always raise in limit, like AQ or KJs. I'm not sure why I'm doing this and it's probably a mistake, but I guess I'm thinking in limit a big percentage of this kind of hand's value comes from pre-flop and in NL the value really comes post flop. Am I close? (I do raise these first in or after 1 or 2 limpers.)

My standard raise is 4x BB, which seems higher than most other people's. Should I adjust this to be "table standard"?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are several factors that you need to consider when determining how much to raise. A couple of obvious ones would be the depth of stacks at the table and the number of limpers. When there are people at the table that will call 10x raises with KT, then you've got a third factor to consider. =)

As for raising with KJs with multiple limpers in front of you, you had better be careful. If you can steal the pot right then, or steal on the flop, then great. But in many loose/passive games there will be people limping with hands that dominate yours (AJ/KQ), and they are unlikely to go away. AQ is a bit different, since it's rare for players to limp with AK even in passive games (in my experiences).