question about odds tables

[Crumpled Ear]

Can someone explain to me why the charts bother listing odds for completing a hand when both the turn AND river are still to come. In other words, why do books often have two columns--one for odds of making a hand with turn and river to come, and one for odds of making a hand with river to come. Don't I have to make independent decisions on both the turn and the river? If that's the case, why include the first column in these tables? Here's an extreme example: let's say I have a pair of 8's in late position and six people, me included, call a raise. There are 12 small bets in the pot. The flop does not have an 8. Now, those tables tell me my odds of catching an 8 by the river are about 11 to 1. As such, I'm encouraged to call a bet and see the turn. On the other hand, my odds of catching on the turn are about 22 to 1. This number, it seems to me, is the one I need to pay attention to. Indeed, if an 8 doesn't come on the turn, I almost certainly won't have odds to see the river. With that in mind, why even pay attention to that first column that tells us odds for turn AND river? Why do books include it?

Thanks!

[pzhon]

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Can someone explain to me why the charts bother listing odds for completing a hand when both the turn AND river are still to come.

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Usually, you should ignore the odds from flop to river when considering whether to call to see the turn. There are at least two situations in which you would use this information:

/images/graemlins/diamond.gif In NL or in tournament play, you may call all-in on the flop. Then you won't be charged on the turn.

/images/graemlins/diamond.gif If you will have the odds to stay in on the turn even if the turn is a blank, the odds of making your draw by the river tell you when you can bet for value. For example, if you have the nut flush draw and feel that you have at least 9 outs (1.86:1), you can bet or raise for value if you will be called by at least 2 people.