Low Buyin SNG vs. Low Limit Holdem

[AsusFull]

Hi, would just like to know from people who've had experience with both, especially on Party Poker. I'm talking about .50/1 and 1/2 limit, and $10+1 NL/PL SNG's.

How was the play different/same or easier/harder? Is it hard to adjust to tournament play after playing limit?

[dfscott]

I know lots of people that play both. Most people recommend that you keep your ring play at limit and your SnG play NL (I guess to keep from messing up your game, but I'm not sure). I'm a ring player that just ventured into SnGs because the ring grind started getting to me. I've found it's freshened up my view on poker and even added a little agression to my limit game. Not to mention, it's fun!

I'd give 'em both a try and play whichever one you like the best. It's possible to win money at either, and why not play the one that brings you more enjoyment.

[AsusFull]

The thing I'm most concerned about is that I had a very hard time learning to play .50/1 from reading Sklansky, which seemed more applicable to higher limits.

Will I be able to play well without much deviation from suggest play in a good PL/NL book like Cloutier's? Sorry if it's a bad question, I've only been playing limit.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Will I be able to play well without much deviation from suggest play in a good PL/NL book like Cloutier's? Sorry if it's a bad question, I've only been playing limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't read it, but general consensus here seems to be no. Instead, I would suggest starting here (http://tinyurl.com/34hmh). This is what I (and many others here) started with. I'd also recommend TPFAP, although you'll find that some of the concepts are oriented towards larger, longer tournaments.

[el Jefe]

Hi Asus,

I've just started playing $10+1 NL SnGs after 4 months of semi-successful (2.5 BB/100) $1-2 ring play and may never go back.

My sample size is very small but I'm ITM 66.7% and my ROI is 150% right now.

The play is absolutely dreadful. As an example, in the one I played last night 3 players went all-in first hand. The first to move in had AJs, the first caller had TT, and the second caller had 95o(!) I'm not kidding. Typically 2-3 players are out before the first round is over. Let the maniacs knock each other out early and play solid tight poker from there. I'm almost always shortstacked early from all the folding but it just takes a hand or two to jump right back into contention. Any time you move all-in expect to be called unless it's down to 4 players or less.

that document from AleoMagus is a goldmine (thanks!) I have TPFAP and it's way too advanced for these games. I just bought No Limit Texas Holdem: New Player Series from Daugherty and McEvoy and it's not bad. Very basic but stresses the most important concepts: playing premium hands only, raising the proper amount, moving in or folding when shortstacked, etc.

good luck.

-Jeff

[BradleyT]

I got knocked out of a $10 SnG last night when I held 99 on the button.

Flop was 932 rainbow and I lost to 86o who pushed all in from SB.

The players are extremely horrid at these levels.

[RcrdBoy]

It's all I play at the moment and the play, at least up to $30, is as bad as any micro limit game.

I have been grinding at the micro limits and also used the SnGs to take a break. NL was just so much different than limit that I had a hard time adjusting and have found the limit opponents to be just terrible.

Just curious why the move to NL? It appears to be the norm.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Just curious why the move to NL? It appears to be
the norm.

[/ QUOTE ]

My opinion is that people don't like limit as much because it's a lot harder to protect your hand. If I flop a set, I can put a tremendous amount of pressure on any drawing hand by just betting the pot (or more). In limit, you can't really stop the draws, so a hand that's made on the flop is much more likely to get draw out on by the river. In short, a made hand is not as much of a sure thing, and in tournament poker, sure things are what you're looking for.

Again, just my opinion.

[RcrdBoy]

Interesting.

It would seem to me that with the all-in aspect of NL that the suckouts could be even worse, but I guess the benefit is taking their whole stack or doubling up when those 8%ers don't hit.

At limit, you don't get pushed off hands because you don't want to play the majority of your stack for a coin flip.

NL has some very intersting aspects (the reason I love reading so many of the posts here), but SH it seems like there is a lot more luck involved.

[aslowjoe]

Limit sng's seem to take about 25% longer. You never have anybody busting out in the first or second round. That said I think you have fewer good players playing limit.(as pertains to that limit). So if you can stand the extra time I think profit per game is higher but your $ per hour is less.
Joe

[Jsb]

i play NL and not limit because limit SNG's are boring, and they take forever.

[slogger]

Many people have many different reasons, but I believe the one that should matter most is the fact that NL accentuates the edge of a good player over the avg and terrible players. It allows terrible players to literally commit suicide while you (the good player) sits back and watches - one mistake on the first hand of a NL tourney and you can be out (not so in limit). It also allows you (the good player) to truly punish the bad player for his/her mistakes when you do have a hand. Finally, it allows you put maximum pressure on your opponents when the game becomes shorthanded (4-6 players remaining) because you can force people to fold when they have to call for all of their chips one spot off the bubble.

Plain and simple, NL enhances the advantage that good players have over bad players.

[Sam T.]

I started in limit games, and have no intention of ever going back. Not only is my success rate higher, but the game is far more complex. In Limit, your choices are check, call, raise, fold or check-raise. In NL, you have an exponentially larger number choices, because of betting isn't a yes/no question. (How much to bet? 1/2 Pot? Pot? All-in? How much does your opponent have?)

I also agree with the poster who noted the importance of leverage to drive opponents off their hands. I accidentally signed up for a limit tournament, and felt like someone had chopped off my arm. I've got AK, a K flops...I'll bet t30, and let you draw to your pair of twos.

My 2 cents.

[RoyalSampler]

Is this on party?

[AsusFull]

5 SNG's: placed 3 2 3 9 5.

I'll see how this goes. Question: is it ok to steal in later rounds when shortstacked and the blinds are tight?

And since tournaments don't have BB/hour, how should I gauge my progress? I have AleoMagus's spreadsheet.

[Jsb]

the important ways of gauging your SNG progress are ROI and ITM%. both of which are calculated by the spreadsheet aleomagus generously provided.
also have you checked out aleomagus guide to beating the 10+1 on party?
in general, when shortstacked in the later rounds, its pretty much all-in or fold time. if the blinds are tight, this is even better, as most of the time this will just result in stealing the blinds. so i guess i'm saying yes, why wouldn't it be ok?

[AsusFull]

I meant with any hand. T7o for instance.

Or do you have to wait for a real hand.

[BradleyT]

Jason would tell you with any hand. Until you get a "feel" for SnGs I would suggest you do it with any ace, any pair, any hand you'd normally play and maybe a few weaker hands - but not T7o as anyone who calls has you easily beat.

[el Jefe]

Yeah, I only play on Party. Haven't tried any others.

-Jeff