Private Tournament Hand

[SossMan]

Playing in a 20 person private money tourney ($200 buy in / No rebuys, pays top 5: 40%, 30%, 15%, 10%, 5%)
Players range from very good to very scared. The weak players are more weak tight than loose passive. The type that will bet timidly and fold too much.
We wanted lots of play, so the stacks started off with T10k and blinds of 25/50 increasing every 25min.
I got lucky enough to flop a small set of 6's early and get paid off by AK on a A 6 x flop. I was generally bullying my table pretty good with my double sized stack.

Down to about 15 and I'm chip leader at my table and 2nd in chips in the tourney when the following hand came up.

Blinds T100/T200 no antes

Folded to weak-tight MP player (~T9k) who raises to T600. Surprisingly, it gets flat called by the two players on his left with about T12k each. I have T24k and look left (SB is looking for a slice of pizza, and BB has his cards in his hands ready to muck) before calling on the button with T /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, blinds comply and fold.

4 to the flop (pot = T2700)

Flop is: 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif4 /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Original raiser bets T1000 and is called once, and I contemplate for about .5 seconds before pushing.

did I raise too much?

[MLG]

Do you think your J or 10 are outs. If so then you bet too much. If they are outs you have a whopping 21 outs to win and should actually want callers. If you don't think they are outs then I think trying to end the hand now is absolutely the right play. In effect its about a 10,000 raise right? (the most you can lose) Thats big but not unbelievably huge. The last thing you want is somebody with about 9000 calling 4000 of their stack here. What do you do if you brick on the turn then. Do you try to bet them off whatever they have, or check behind to see the river?

One other question, what do you think of these players' grasps of pot odds?

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think your J or 10 are outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hell, i don't know...your guess is as good as mine. I think either one could easily be playing TT-AA here. I also think that the original raiser would lay down TT/JJ to my all in raise (mostly because its me, and i scare him)

[ QUOTE ]
The last thing you want is somebody with about 9000 calling 4000 of their stack here. What do you do if you brick on the turn then. Do you try to bet them off whatever they have, or check behind to see the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

I kinda didn't want to have to make a big river laydown if I catch TPSK (top pair sh!tty kicker) after checking behind on the turn. I was really indifferent about a call or a fold here, honestly. I'll post the results later, cause they're kind of funny....(do you hear a loud sucking sound??)

[schwza]

I think you should push here, and one reason is that you don't really know if your J or T are outs here, just as you're not sure that you're not up against a bigger flush draw. It sucks to hit one and still double someone up if that person wouldn't pay you off if you hit.

If you don't get called, that's fine, because if the turn doesn't hit you then it's going to be tough to play. The push would only be about 10k into a pot of about 4.5k, which is really not that much of an overbet. This is a monster hand if you're all-in on the flop, and based on the action so far this hand, these guys don't seem too opposed to calling bets.

[tripdad]

the only thing that bothers me about this is that you had to think about it so long.

cheers!

[La Brujita]

I didn't read the responses but I push as well although it is a close call imo. 4700 in the pot and 23000 in front of you, a pot sized raise is to 6700 which is about 30% of your stack.

I don't mind pushing in exactly this situation, you are happy to take down the pot and you really want a through ticket to the river.

The thing you dread most is a blank on the turn and a huge bet, a push and you avoid that. My question for you is how likely do you think a push will be on the turn by your opponent if a blank hits.

Edit to say I see that you say the players bet timidly. After thinking about it I still push actually because the other thing to consider is how likely you are to get incorrect callers. MLG makes good points about your opponents' knowledge about pot odds and also whether or not your J and T outs are good.

My thoughts to add are being all in gives you a benefit when you don't know exactly which outs are good. Also, it seems that I see a lot of players who don't bet strong but call all in bets incorrectly these days, which kind of gets to MLG's pot odds point.

The reason I still push is because the other two players' stack sizes are not deep enough to get too tricky with smaller bet sizes imo.

[MLG]

Move-in seems like the right play to me. I think Doyle played two overs and a flush draw the same way when he knocked Lederer out of the WSOP this year. Lederer checked his set, Doyle moved all-in, and when Howard obviously called doyle ran him down.

Straight Flush draws are just never in bad shape if you get all-in on the flop. The only hand I could imagine you hate seeing here is like A-4 or K-4 of diamonds.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't read the responses but I push as well although it is a close call imo. 4700 in the pot and 23000 in front of you, a pot sized raise is to 6700 which is about 30% of your stack.



[/ QUOTE ]

By closest opponent started the hand with only 12k, so that's really all I can lose, worst case.

[SossMan]

I surprised nobody has given me crap for calling a 3x raise from a weak tight MP player with JTs. (not that i think it's wrong, but i'm surprised i didn't get a bunch of "fold prefop" responses.)

[Laomedon]

Fold this preflop.... Just kidding (well not really). Clearly you hit the flop in the (second) best way possible, but how often do you make this call with a similar hand? I suppose it is excusable because you are probably a very good player post-flop and you have a large stack. Barring those two things you would most certainly agree that this is a hand you fold pre-flop, or does anyone disagree?

So I assume you took it down right there, or did you get any action?

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Straight Flush draws are just never in bad shape if you get all-in on the flop. The only hand I could imagine you hate seeing here is like A-4 or K-4 of diamonds.


[/ QUOTE ]
Even then, I have 14 outs twice, or roughly 50-50 shot to win.

Well, turns out I had minimum # of outs, 8.

Original raiser had AA, and caller had K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, and they both called.

A blank fell on the turn, and I hit the 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif on the river for the stones.

The guy with the KQ kept chanting "diamond...c'mon diamond". I don't think he noticed my staight flush draw, because he started jumping around the room when the 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif hit. It didn't take him long to notice me start reaching for "his" chips, though.

I went on to somehow, with more than 3x anyone else's stack, manage to take 4th place. Boy, I play goot.

[tripdad]

he's getting plenty enough action to make this call with good position and chip count. this hand is easy to dump if he doesn't hit.

Monday in a live tourney, i was on the button, had a massive chip lead and 6-7 offsuit. there was an UTG raise and 3 callers ahead of me, with a SB who is aware of pot odds, so if i call, he comes along. flop came 4-5-8 rainbow. SB bets out hard, UTG(my wife BTW)(AA) pushes, i call and SB(77) calls. i busted both on the same hand.

cheers!

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold this preflop.... Just kidding (well not really). Clearly you hit the flop in the (second) best way possible, but how often do you make this call with a similar hand? I suppose it is excusable because you are probably a very good player post-flop and you have a large stack. Barring those two things you would most certainly agree that this is a hand you fold pre-flop, or does anyone disagree?


[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like you talked your way into it being a good preflop call, lol.
For the reasons you mentioned (except for the "very good postflop" part), I thought this call was pretty routine. If I don't get at least one caller inbetween the raiser and I, or if the blinds look anxious, or if the stacks weren't so deep (especially mine /images/graemlins/grin.gif), I would muck this cheez-whiz pretty fast.
But with all those factors working my way, I think the call is pretty standard, as long as I am able to lay down to significant action on a J X X flop, which I think I am.

[ QUOTE ]
So I assume you took it down right there, or did you get any action?

[/ QUOTE ]

to quote Hertz....not exactly...see my results post.