Two Blind Hands Penthouse to Outhouse [Archive]

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La Brujita

07-08-2004, 03:43 PM

$30 Party nl tournament, 390 entrants and we are down to 67, 40 itm. I was probably in 15th place or so and in two consecutive blind hands went from golden to gone.

I may have played both badly not really sure. My brief comments are below. I would appreciate any and all comments.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

CO (t3050)
Button (t7310)
SB (t4850)
Hero (t7009)
UTG (t9170)
UTG+1 (t3345)
UTG+2 (t10485)
MP1 (t2775)
MP2 (t3770)
MP3 (t5830)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif. UTG posts a blind of t400.
8 folds, SB completes, Hero checks,

Flop: (t1000) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets t400, Hero calls t400.

Turn: (t1800) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (t1800) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t888, SB calls t888.

Final Pot: t3576
Main Pot: t3576 (t3576), between SB and Hero. > Pot won by SB (t3576).

Results in white below: 
SB shows 8s Kc (two pair, aces and kings).
Hero shows Ts 2s (one pair, aces).
Outcome: SB wins t3576. 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP3 (t3050)
CO (t7310)
Button (t6438)
Hero (t5421)
BB (t9170)
UTG (t3345)
UTG+1 (t10485)
UTG+2 (t2775)
MP1 (t3770)
MP2 (t5830)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
8 folds, Hero raises to t1200, BB raises to t9170 (All-In), Hero calls t4221 (All-In).

Flop: (t14591) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: (t14591) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t14591) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t14591
Main Pot: t10842 (t10842), between Hero and BB. > Pot won by BB (t10842).
Pot 2: t3749 (t3749), returned to BB.

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Tc Td (two pair, tens and fives).
BB shows Ah Ac (two pair, aces and fives).
Outcome: BB wins t14591. 

In the first hand the player was weak and a bit predictible, and could be pushed off hands. That might cut both ways, he might not bet without anything but I felt he didn't have an ace (since he didn't raise preflop) and could be pushed off the hand if I busted my flush draw. His minimum bet looked like a feeler stab at the pot. I could have raised the flop but felt I had a decent chance to see a free card on the turn.

The second hand I had no great read on my opponent. I don't think I will win any ESPYs for my play on the hand. I need about a 39% ev to make the call correct. Perhaps a tough decision. Typically if I plan on calling an all in I usually lead out all in but this hand was unclear so I led out with my standard bet.

Best Regards

MLG

07-08-2004, 03:49 PM

First hand I think you played it fine. I think there are probably any number of hands he folds there. I'm of the opinion that there is absolutely nothing you can do about the second hand either. Cards happen, and sometimes you just have to pray for suck-outs.

Tosh

07-08-2004, 04:16 PM

LB, something has screwed up in the first hand where it is listing some weird things. E.g. the UTG posting a blind of 400?? I was going on some facts that might be wrong when I gave my opinion of it before, can you clear the details up?

La Brujita

07-08-2004, 04:26 PM

That must be a bug in the converter. There was no ep blind.

SossMan

07-08-2004, 04:27 PM

hand 1: looks good. I particularly like the T888 bet. Not T887, not T889, but T888..it has a nice ring to it. Make sure it's also your next river value bet vs. this guy.

hand2: looks good...usually those gross overbet raises signal medium pairs or even small pairs, so TT has a better chance at dominating than being dominated, IMO.

Tosh

07-08-2004, 04:33 PM

Ok if the situation is he bet a minimum bet I would call the flop. The way it looked I thought he'd bet about the pot, to which I would muck.

Chief911

07-08-2004, 04:33 PM

Without a read on your opponent who reraised you, how do you call with TT? Unless you are seeking out coin flips (or worse), I have a very hard time calling an all in here. He could have any number of hands that either dominate you, or you're barely even with.

Why not lick your wounds and wait for a better day. That 1200 you would have lost had you folded is easily made up in 2 blind steals. Especially if you dont know him, you have to respect the reraise.

Just my opinion.

Nick

La Brujita

07-08-2004, 07:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Without a read on your opponent who reraised you, how do you call with TT? Unless you are seeking out coin flips (or worse), I have a very hard time calling an all in here. He could have any number of hands that either dominate you, or you're barely even with.

Why not lick your wounds and wait for a better day. That 1200 you would have lost had you folded is easily made up in 2 blind steals. Especially if you dont know him, you have to respect the reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was exactly the point I was struggling with. A lot of what you say here makes excellent sense to me. The thing that I am just not sure of is whether I am getting the huge edge in ev by calling given his possible range of hands as some of the others suggest. I like the way I played the first hand, the second hand still has me very confused.

Jason Strasser

07-08-2004, 09:27 PM

LaBrujita,

The first hand to me has everything to do with table image. If you have been very protective of blinds, (i.e. you would raise if he limped in with any Ax) you could not pull off a play like this, no one would give you credit for an ace if you checked PF. However, you and I have fairly similar styles, and I don't raise here with A6o.

Therefore I'd probably go with the line of semi-bluffing on the flop, and then going check check on the turn and river if he called the flop bet. I like this line better than flailing away at the river. I'd call you with a king here most of the time. Wouldn't you have bet the turn if you had an ace?

With regards to hand 2, you are screwed. I have to disagree witt chief and say that your average party player will make this move with a ton of hands. I would like to add as an aside, there is no chance I don't push here PF. So many BB would come over the top with a hand like AJ, but would never call the all in with it. You are fairly close to 10xbb, I like to push here PF, but in your spot, your stack is too small to fold after the raise under any circumstances IMO. If you had 8k, this is a comfortable fold.

I would rate hand one as a little too ambitious, not something I would try against your avg party opponent, and I would rate hand two as doomed from the start, any way you played it.

Cheers,
-Jason

Tosh

07-09-2004, 05:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]

With regards to hand 2, you are screwed. I have to disagree witt chief and say that your average party player will make this move with a ton of hands. I would like to add as an aside, there is no chance I don't push here PF. So many BB would come over the top with a hand like AJ, but would never call the all in with it. You are fairly close to 10xbb, I like to push here PF, but in your spot, your stack is too small to fold after the raise under any circumstances IMO. If you had 8k, this is a comfortable fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, on PP you will be shown more hands you're a big favourite against than you're a big dog against.

Rifter

07-09-2004, 08:02 AM

Reading through the action on the second hand, that re-raise just smells like Aces. TT is fine to raise with, thin out the field, but if you get popped with a re-raise you've got to lay it down, unless you have a really good read on your opponent as an idiot. This player had a lot of chips, which probably means he was doing something right. There just aren't too many situations where you are winning this hand pre-flop. And I wouldn't want to put all my chips in on a coinflip. Hope this helps.

Chief911

07-09-2004, 09:40 AM

All about the situation.

While I agree that in the early going of a MTT, you may be shown hands that you dominate with TT. But with 60 people left off a $30 MTT (And no read on opponent), I think you are behind MOST of the time here. Just my opinion, nad with two people that are much better players than I (Tosh and Strassa), maybe its not correct. But given the situation, the number of players left, and the reraise, I think you have to lay it down.

Nick

MLG

07-09-2004, 09:45 AM

That reraise smells nothing like Aces, it smells like I have two cards. The only reason it smells like aces to you is that you can see the results.

Jason Strasser

07-09-2004, 10:45 AM

Fair enough Chief, I see your arguments. It is close either way.

Would you push preflop though?

Tosh

07-09-2004, 11:03 AM

I discussed this with LB a bit, I agree its very close.

SossMan

07-09-2004, 11:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Reading through the action on the second hand, that re-raise just smells like Aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you're kidding. I would have bet my left nut that he had a pocket pair smaller than TT or weak overcards like AT-AQ, KQ-KT, JQ, QT, etc...

99 times out of 100, bigger pairs will make a smaller raise.

Chief911

07-09-2004, 12:34 PM

Jason,

In the SB there, I would HATE to see a call of a steal (the move made above), so yes, I'd pull a Strassa and push. Mostly because you see an overcard on the flop, and its checkdown time. When you have to put in 1/4 of your stack, with TT, its an easy push.

But, that push is all about style of play. Some other people here like to make a 3xbb raise here, and still give themselves room to escape an all in raise.

Obviously in this situation he was screwed either way, if he makes the correct (probably) move and pushes, he's screwed. But only screwed by AA, KK, AK, because most others would never call the push.

I push. But if I made a mental mistake and just 3xBB, I'm layin it down. These bubble/post-bubble areas are so prone for people pushing with crap, its only a matter of time before I can reraise or push vs. a steal, and take quite a few chips, if not all of their chips.

Nick