playing Overcards - hand for review

[Chiefs Fan]

Playing overcards has been 1 of the toughest things for me to learn and I have leaked away lots of money trying to get people to fold or continously firing chips in the pot regardless of the texture of the board. I have been doing alot of reading on overcards the past week, HPFAP, Improve your Poker, Middle limit holdem, and Jason Pohl's articles. The past few days I feel I have definitely improved my play of them and have much less problem laying them down than in previous weeks/months. I know I am improving and it feels good to see positive results.

Here is a hand from the other day I would have won and I laid it down on the flop.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">MP bets</font>, CO calls, Button calls, Hero folds, BB calls, UTG folds.

Turn: (8 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP checks, CO checks, Button checks.

River: (8 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 8 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 8 BB, between MP, CO, Button and BB.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Button (8 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
BB shows Js Tc (one pair, nines).
MP shows Th Kh (one pair, nines).
CO shows 4d 7d (one pair, nines).
Button shows Jd Ad (one pair, nines).
Outcome: Button wins 8 BB. </font>

With all these limpers I feel I am definitely going to be played with on the flop. No way is everyone folding out here and with my position I will have a hard time knowing where I'm at. Should I bet at this pot? Call and take a card off? I know I'm going to get callers and I can't be sure here any of my outs are clean.

[serling]

I would bet out on the flop. The board is innocuous enough and I want low pocket pairs to fold.

I'd also bet out on the turn. The 9 pairing helps you. If raised, I'd fold.

If everyone is still around for the river, I might consider check-folding. But usually I still bet here as well.

serling

[SaintAces]

love it

[Peter_rus]

You must bet until raised. River is optional. But turn and flop - everytime.

[Zele]

I'm not crazy about the p/f raise. If you just completed you'd have the option of trying to isolate c/r or just let go on the flop. As it is, you can't really letting go given the pot size, so you should probably lead out, unless you think it will get checked to the button and you can get it heads up with a c/r.

[fyodor]

In most cases after being the PF raiser and just flopping over cards like this I bet away. In this particular case I don't know that it's the right thing to be doing. You have 5 opponents, the worst possible position and you have squat for a hand. You know that at PP 1/2 even if someone has 23o he's going to call you down with that bottom pair. You would meet with no resistance so you would keep firing. You're essentially bluffing. Bluffing is next to useless at PP.

Ok this time they all missed and you would have won but how often do 6 players stay till the end and no one pairs?

[blubster]

I agree with fyodor.

[fyodor]

blubster you display an intelligence far superior than your handle would imply.

[vector]

Your outs may not be clean, but I don't see any reason to assume this.

You are getting ~8:1 to hit an A or Q next card, and the pot is offering 15:1 to call the small bet. Even if its raised behind you by the BB and UTG folds, as long as the earlier positions come along you still get to see the turn getting 10:1 pot odds.

I think this means definitely taking one off.

But, it also helps make the case for betting out, where you are already getting 12:1 from the pot. I think its important to note that just because you bet out on the flop doesn't mean you are committing yourself to leading out for the rest of the hand.

As it turns out someone had an A, so you were only 9:1 to improve on the turn (an ace still gives you the winner, but one less out there), still warranting playing on.

The more people see the flop, the more pointless it is to bet, bet, bet with overcards hoping they all fold, as you seem to be aware. But, the corresponding increase in pot odds make playing on in the hope of spiking one of your outs much more viable.

[blubster]

thank you

[Chiefs Fan]

exactly my point, i have no doubt i will have callers and i will have no idea where i'm at in the hand, I almost have to assume I've got to catch an A or a Q to win.

spots like this I have been uncomfortable raising PF but with all the trash I have seen people play SHed I raised because if I make top pair I have a good chance at winning a very nice pot.

[montechristo]

I also agree with fyodor and blubster. On PP 1/2 this is going to be useless as you will get called down with second and third pair no matter what. Why do they do this? Some players see ace high win a pot one time and think you are buying everything. Others just think that second pair is the holy nuts, and if the board makes them a miracle set or two pair by the river you're jacked even if you hit your overcard. 5/10 is a different story.

[vector]

[ QUOTE ]
As it turns out someone had an A, so you were only 9:1 to improve on the turn (an ace still gives you the winner, but one less out there), still warranting playing on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops, I missed that OESD, Q is no good, so it was only ~14:1 to call the flop bet. Not that you can know that at the time.

Perhaps this is a good argument for being more aggressive, you'll never get rid of the good draws like JT but if you can cut the field some the chances of showing down a winner unimproved increase a lot.

[ctv1116]

I'd bet the flop. If you get 2 or 3 calls, just give up on the turn if you do not improve; you will have to showdown your hand, and you probably aren't going to win.

[naphand]

[ QUOTE ]
I want low pocket pairs to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then don't play Party $1/$2.

[naphand]

[ QUOTE ]
You must bet until raised. River is optional. But turn and flop - everytime.

[/ QUOTE ]

No way.

You will not show a profit playing unimproved overcards like this on Party $1/$2. There is no benefit to be gained trying to develop a "table image", perhaps over 10 hands but not anything that is worth any kind of "investment".

To bet this way you need HU or 2 opponents max. and be certain your opponents are drawing. With some kind of re-draw (to the nut straight, for example) then it is probably ok, only because you have the correct odds to do so.

I think flop bet is OK, or check/call to see the Turn, as Party players play with such crap, and pay your TP off with anything when you do hit. Overcards need to be played with consideration. Sometimes "crash-bash" will work here, but it needs the right board and players, most of the time you are spewing chips to a bunch of hands that won't fold.

Party $1/$2. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You must bet until raised. River is optional. But turn and flop - everytime.

[/ QUOTE ]
No way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree. People always betting overcards are the ones that decent players often call down with small pairs. Every session I have this scenario: An aggressive player raises, I call in BB with something like 97o or J7s. Flop is nothing special but gives me a pair. I bet out, he raises and I call him down (If I know he isnt capping without high pair I sometimes 3bet, but if he caps AK there is no information from this, better let him draw to his 6 outs, minimizing loss if I am behind). If I only call his flopraise he almost always bets turn and often at river again. He shows me overcards. Against theses players its very profitable to hit a pair on flop, they cant fold so you get very good implied odds on hitting that pair.

In this hand, with AQ, I would probably bet flop, making it a bigger chance someone fold and me beeing ahead if I hit turn. Also, people hitting a good hand at 1/2 normally wait for turn until raising as long as I bet flop, therefore it will often be cheaper to bet. I would normally check-fold turn.

[Guido]

I would also raise this preflop especially when you play well postflop. When you don't I don't mind limping as Zele suggested. I would bet this on the flop because you very well might still have the best hand and perhaps some small pair fold although not likely. You are going to call a bet anyway so when not bet out yourself. I don't like your fold because the pot is huge. Always betting out on the flop and turn like Peter said is silly and he knows that's one of his leaks. With 5 opponents bulldozing through them isn't profitable. In this case I would bet the turn too because the board paired and you will find out whether you are behind very soon. If they are still around on the river I would check-fold or check-call depending on who bet and his position and if somebody call this bet.

Thanks,

Guido

[Chiefs Fan]

[ QUOTE ]
No way.


[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree. I'd said in my post I had trouble playing overcards, this is exactly why. I use to fire chips over and over, getting called by 32o with bottom pair to beat me. After all the reading I've done about overcards in the past couple weeks, I realize its much more profitable at party $1/2 to just check fold them when I miss the flop.

Was my flop raise awful?

[naphand]

What flop raise?

PF raise was fine, you are against a bunch of trashy hands, probably have the best hand and if not, could easily Flop or Turn the best hand. Make those suckers pay to play, AQo even from the SB, is worth a raise PF. 3-bet? that depends on who is raising and if I can kick anyone out with a re-raise.

On the flop, with the tubby pot you have made, and a very ragged flop, I think it is worth calling the bet to see the Turn. Catch an A or Q and you are ahead almost all the time (except a $1/$2 favourite JT, of course). I probably bet out from the SB, but check/call is ok as well if you think it helps to give you a handle on anyone, plus you can CR the Turn if you catch an A (very likely a worse A out there than yours). A Q could be trouble in the form of JT, but that is only one hand of many.

Raise PF and bet the flop should be your defaulkt line with AQo, even from SB.

[Chiefs Fan]

oops, yeah, i did mean PF. Thanks.

[Nate tha' Great]

I think just completing preflop might be best. It keeps the pot smaller, which is probably helpful with a hand like yours out of position against a large field. It conceals your hand a lot better, potentially allowing you to make up for some lost bets if you flop an A or a Q. It also sets up a check-raising opportunity if the flop is favorable but dangerous.

On the flop, I'd probably bet out ... this is not a fantastic flop for you, but it's rainbow at least and doesn't contain a T, J or K, which are the cards that you'd least like to see. Having checked, I think it's way too conservative to fold getting something like 15:1, even recognizing that your outs will not always be clean.

[kiddo]

Preflop raise is ok, if you are against somewhat thinking players you can, as nate says, call preflop and then make it up if you hit. But at 1/2 I would raise, not many are thinking of potodds or what your raise actually means.