Dull hand

[1800GAMBLER]

This is a dull hand other than i think people will disagree with my river play, but the reason i'm posting it is that it's not my standard line but i think it should be:

15/30 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="666666">3 folds</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.66 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.33 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.33 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>

If he raises the river i fold.

[stoxtrader]

interesting hand. what is your standard line? a good player's three betting standards would be AK, AA, KK, QQ, maybe JJ and TT or AQ if he was aggressive. If CO is not a good player, then that changes things.

I do like the way you played it.

[1800GAMBLER]

I usually checkraise the flop for a few reasons, the most important being there's more combinations of hands i'm leading against and AK will call down all the way.

Comparing this to my standard line i go 1SB less against AK AQ 99 yet 2SBs less against AA KK QQ JJ. I usually 5 outs when behind and he has 3 outs when behind.

If i had TJ i'd checkraise. Comments?

[DeeJ]

Either check-raise or bet the flop. The advantage with check-raising is that you will see if he's playing a Jack or two spades (or better).

It's unlikely he will carry on with AKo although even then I guess you need to slow down if a scare card comes. As it doesn't, you can disregard the flush and your line is fine. He may have been 3-betting A /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/K /images/graemlins/spade.gif and totally missed.

If you bet the flop you would know if he's calling or raising. As it is you don't know much about his hand.

AA/KK/QQ/JJ or TT are also possible but since you posted the hand I guess you know the result?

[Nate tha' Great]

I think the river play is fine, given how you played the rest of the hand, and that you're planning on folding to a raise. (If you're up against an opponent who is aggressive enough to raise in that spot with a worse hand ... well, you should probably just go ahead and check it anyway, since it's very likely that he's going to bet it for you).

But, as you state in your other post, I think you probably have to check-raise the flop. The problem is that AK and AQ have flopped a gutshot in addition to their pair outs, as well as a possible flush draw. Because of that, I think it's critical to retain the initiative in the hand when there's a good chance that you're ahead, and avoid getting taken for a free card on the turn. You're playing this like a way-ahead-or-way-behind situation when it really isn't one.

[1800GAMBLER]

I hate betting out the most. That means i go 2 bets with AA etc and 1 with AK (i think people hugely over-estimate AK raising me here - nor does that matter because of the turn play).

I also hate the idea of making a bet thinking the main reason is for information; the information has no value since i'm not going to play my hand any differently, i.e. i'm not folding.

AKo also does carry on all the time; the whole reason for my river play was totally because of the sole reason i think AKo will call a bet yet check behind.

[1800GAMBLER]

/images/graemlins/frown.gif I suck, i missed the gutshot outs. I agree with c/r'ing now. Had the board been Txx i like this line.

[DeeJ]

Ah, well if you're not folding then you're committed to getting to the river cheaply, which explains the line.

I think I lose too much with 2nd pair when I play passive like this, and haven't tested the opponent's strength, but I haven't done the analysis yet so I could be wrong. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Daggs911]

I don't think that should be your standard line.

What do you gain by betting? You're not going to make a better hand fold - at best, AA,KK,QQ just call you down. Since you're determined to see a showdown, I'd see it as cheaply as possible and give AK or AQ a chance to bluff the river.

That said, I agree with previous posters that a flop check-raise would give you much better information to play the rest of the hand - if you get 3-bet, easy laydown.

_M_

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
:( I suck, i missed the gutshot outs. I agree with c/r'ing now. Had the board been Txx i like this line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jxx u meant?

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
You're playing this like a way-ahead-or-way-behind situation when it really isn't one.

[/ QUOTE ]

agree

[1800GAMBLER]

You are wrong about the river play because you are wrong in thinking how Ax plays the river.

See my response about about this stupid 'info' bet crap.

[DeeJ]

[ QUOTE ]
stupid 'info' bet crap

[/ QUOTE ]

You force him to make a bigger decision by betting. He can fold, call or raise. If you don't bet he can only check or bet. In your case if you're not check-raising you know much less about his hand - only that he bet rather than checking - and you're into big bets with little clue as to his hand strength after the flop, and quite likely you are behind, too.

By betting if he raises you can probably fold there. Even if you invest another SB to see the turn you can check-fold. If as you suspect he is playing AQ/AK you're right, you won't get him to lay down on the flop, but hey, this is the opportunity to find out... he might well have 3-bet 77,88 or 99. I think check-raising is best, betting second best and check-calling dead last.

He hasn't been given any chance to fold his hand, either.

He may also have AA or AJ or KK or QQ or 88 or TTT or JJJ, you wouldn't actually know until he raises you on the river, he's put money in the pot at every opportunity he's had, 3-bet,bet,bet.

[if your read was totally good and he was playing AK or AQ, I take it all back, with interest and humble pie /images/graemlins/grin.gif ]

Oh, and finally, yes, totally, bet the river /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
stupid 'info' bet crap

[/ QUOTE ]


By betting if he raises you can probably fold there. Even if you invest another SB to see the turn you can check-fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. That's the total reason i didn't checkraise for information.

[elysium]

hi gambler
you played it fine. when the CO 3-bets pre-flop, you need to get heads-up by the turn with your hand, otherwise check-fold the turn. since you were heads-up on the flop, your job is over. just call him down.

the sudden reverse on the river....hmmm. no gambler, that's not what i would do, but i see no fault in the play. that can be o.k. if you're bets on the river are getting too much respect. however, if that's the case, with the double coordinated board, you should betout on the flop, and back-down to the raise. check the turn and betout on the river if the turn is checked down. the early check-raise removes any possibility of making the draw pay the fullest. if he is on the draw, the turn will be checked down, in that case.

remember something gambler, betting strongly into your opponent sometimes doesn't extract the fullest amount that you otherwise could have extracted from the draw, when you are heads-up. with a made hand, and a draw ridden board, sometimes it is better to back-down and check on the turn, representing a possible check-raise, those times the board is draw infested, but you also have an opponent against whom you are just squeeking by the pots odds because you are just getting enough in the way of pot odds to either call him down, or make a play to fold him out, and furthermore, a menacing drawish board. so you have a quandary; on the one hand, you want the draw to pay, but on the other, you are likely trailing any made hand, and while pot odds mandate that you call, you want to keep your costs down, while keeping his costs up.

the formula for that with a showdown type made hand, from first position, is to betout on the flop, back down to his raise; then check and call, do not raise, the turn. if the turn is checked down, betout on the river if your river bets are getting too much respect. while he may see the turn cheaply, you get in the extra small bet on the flop, and when he is leading with a powerhouse, you aren't faced with a raise, and never out of the math.

there is nothing that you can do about the turn, so try to attack where you safely can, and only risk a raise on the river, where raises are less likely to occur, and only to loosen your image. the back-down on the flop will not scare the draw out of betting if that's what he intended to do. so you like an opponent who bets his draws in this spot. you don't want to check to an opponent who never bets his draws and bluffs correctly. then, check-call the whole way, unless he never bluffs. you'll need to improve on the turn in that case.

smack him one on the flop, back-down and check. you can't do any better than that here. you smacked him on the river?.....whew. that's ingenious.