Not very patriotic of me

[Warren Whitmore]

I made a post about a year ago saying that there was a direct correlation between people from different parts of the world and thier ability to play well. I got such comments back as "why dont you keep track of something useful?". I believe that is useful I have correlated the percentage of peoples ability to read English with thier poker playing abilities and found a very tight correlation. I suspect the reason for this is because most of the best poker books and educational materials are written in English. Over the 4th of July weekend I tested this theory by playing 25 hours on sites with no American players. This is normally impossible buy most Americans took the long weekend of from playing. The games where fantastic with and average of 60% of the players seeing the flop for texas holdem at the 15:30 leval. I had the most profitable 25 hour session ever which my statitical process control charts indicated where caused "by a special cause". I am therefor staying with my origional statement that the ability to read English does matter.

[nummerfire]

As a foreign player I agree with that.

You have almost no chance, if you cant read english.

(Unless translated editions are available, but certainly not in a small language like danish.)

I also remarked the softness of the games this weekend, but I thought it was because all the silly americans had to much time on their hands.

Kim

[J.R.]

Over the 4th of July weekend I tested this theory by playing 25 hours on sites with no American players. This is normally impossible but most Americans took the long weekend of from playing....I had the most profitable 25 hour session ever which my statistical process control charts indicated where caused "by a special cause".

Is this a joke?

[Warren Whitmore]

No joke, but heres a good one....

A mailman is ready to retire so he goes on his regular route for the last day. He gets a few gifts a pencil set here a a card with $5 it there. He comes to the last house on his route and a beautiful woman invites him in for lunch. They have a great meal with great conversation and when they are done she says lets go upstairs and have sex! He says you have got to be kidding this is great. So they go upstairs and have sex. On the way out the door she says opps I almost forgot and hands him a dollar. He says I dont get it You made me a great lunch and the sex was fantastik but whats with the dollar? She said "I told my husband this was your last day and asked him what we should get you? He said screw him, give him a dollar, the lunch was my idea."

[nothumb]

Does the ability to speak English properly matter? Because by that standard I know a lot of European players who would smoke you.

Maybe all the Americans were just drunk. I know I was.

NT

[Warren Whitmore]

Even better

[StellarWind]

My personal experience is that the lower limits at Paradise are much tougher during times when North American participation is low and Europeans are a major portion of the players.

There also is no shortage of silly players North of the Border in my experience. I think the U.S. and Canada are in this one together.

[J_V]

Warren Whitmore, you're the man. Is that British sense of humour you have there? You always give me a good chuckle.

The joke, I've heard....but the setup: "No joke, but here's a good one" is priceless.

[J_V]

I completely agree. The Swedes must read English well though, cuz they are good.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
I am therefor staying with my origional statement that the ability to read English does matter.


[/ QUOTE ]

This might be the most unintentionally funny thing I've read in a long time.

[jdl22]

I think the average Swede has a much better understanding of English grammar than most Americans, Aussies, and Brits. Apparently all Swedes getting a college degree have to know English.

[Cpt Spaulding]

Knowing english I feel has little to do with poker skills...Someone who is from a different country may have difficulty reading other players because they have little contact with other cultures. We have an advantage there. the US has many different cultures living in it so we are exposed to a wider variety of people. You have a basic point, I jsut think it goes deeper than simply not knowing english.

[nothumb]

Are you saying that the average American is more 'worldly' or knows more different types of people than the average European? That might be even funnier than the thing about English and poker skills.

And if it were true, are you saying that because you know someone from Compton and someone from Chinatown you can read a player sitting at a computer in Japan better than the guy from France across the table?

You so crazy!

NT

[gamblore99]

the availability of poker books, and poker playing ability makes sense.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Knowing english I feel has little to do with poker skills

[/ QUOTE ]
It has everything to do with reading poker books, magazines, and forums that are primarily written in English.

[nothumb]

gamblore,

I agree. But I think we too readily assume that European players don't learn about poker in their own language, or that they don't speak enough English to learn. Plus, let's not forget that a sizeable portion of Europe (The UK) speaks English as a national language. (I guess these Europeans are not included in Warren's original post...)

I would imagine that, given their supremacy over average Americans in terms of scholarly desires and linguistic skills, many Europeans do seek and find a lot of good poker knowledge. And you know, as soon as they do, they're spreading it around. They're all socialists over there. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

We could always ask Rolf or somebody to comment on this.

NT

[Cpt Spaulding]

I think in your haste to attack my opinion you failed to grasp the original point.....What I was saying was...In general the average American is exposed to more cultures than let's say the average person from china. You completely missed what I was saying...I wasn't trying to build up americans as better players, so don't get all bent outta shape. There is a reason this country is called the great melting pot. Play level in my opinion is on a case by case basis...I would never think that a persons play level is based on demographics or verbal skills...Next time you feel you have to attack a person, make sure you understand what the person was saying......

[Cpt Spaulding]

Well...If you don't speak french you wouldn't buy a book written in french...I assume the opposite applies...Don't forget speaking english and reading english don't always go hand in hand. I do see your point that we have more resources to poker info,but grasping and using the information is a whole other story....Really it boils down to the individuals abilities, not thier demographics or language they speak....

[Cpt Spaulding]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Knowing english I feel has little to do with poker skills

[/ QUOTE ]

It has everything to do with reading poker books, magazines, and forums that are primarily written in English.

[/ QUOTE ]

Knowing English and reading English do usually go hand in hand...agreed....Not what we are talking about here...Speaking english and playing poker...I thought about this more...Came to the conclusion they have absolutely nothing to do with eachother...If I went to a casino in Japan I would be somewhat lost not knowing the words for call raise or fold....So, knowing English would do nothing for my game....Thinking more....Knowing Mathmatics would be a greater advantage than knowing english...Funny how that isn't mentioned....Maybe the reason this guy did so well at that table he mentioned was because the other players were there for recreation and not there to strictly make money...Poker is a game, people do play for fun...He just got lucky and found a table with tourists just enjoying their vacation. We should all be so lucky..... Another thought that just occured to me...Online poker.....can anyone explain how knowing english helps there?????

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
think in your haste to attack my opinion you failed to grasp the original point.....What I was saying was...In general the average American is exposed to more cultures than let's say the average person from china.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I understood your point perfectly. I just didn't agree.

First of all, the original post was mainly about Europe vs. America (this is where a lot of non-American online players are). Your assertion that Americans are more sensitive to diverse cultures or more exposed to them was, to me, not believable. Yes, there are a lot of different cultures in America, but mostly they keep to themselves, even in the big cities. The average American is far more ignorant and jingoistic than you give him credit for.

Furthermore, I disagreed with you when (if? it's hard to tell with you) you said that this cultural diversity would make us better players or give us any sort of edge.

NT

[Cpt Spaulding]

I completely agree with you about the stupidity of most Americans....You won't get an arguement from me there. To be honest with you, I really don't think that we have any kind of edge in a poker game....What I was trying to convey is "if" we have any edge in the game (which I don't think we do) that would be the reason.....Not because we speak english.....I may not have been to clear on that...I generally post here between hands when I am playing online so my train of thought get derailed often.....I apologize for not being more clear in my original post....

[ismisus]

From my experience large-buy-in final tables are dominated by Europeans

[Rolf Slotboom]

Hi Nothumb,

Thanks for your PM - I guess I've got no other option but to give you guys my view now. /images/graemlins/cool.gif Anyway, I would say that while quite a few people seemed to disagree with the initial poster, I do think he has a point actually. I will add two things here:

1. In Europe there are a few counties that have poker where people don't speak English very well. Because they don't have access to some of the books / forums etc. where things are all in English, they often have trouble grasping even some basic (theoretical) things about the game. So, in this case I would argue that Warren Whitmore is correct: In general the level of play in counties like France, Spain and Austria is quite a bit lower than in counties where people speak English well, for instance U.K., Scandinavia and also The Netherlands. I used to live in Austria (in Vienna) for quite a while, and while everybody knew that I was a writer for various sites / magazines and (to put it midly) did pretty well in their games with a -to them- unusual style of play, they still didn't bother to start reading some of the stuff that people had written on the game, simply because they had too much trouble with the English already to grasp the essence of the advice. In fact, while I lived there for quite a while and everybody knows about my site and the material that's on it, much less than 0.1% of the viewers if from Austria. (On the other hand, they might visit sites that offer better advice, of course... /images/graemlins/smile.gif) Either way, in 7 or 8 years time, I would say that the level of play in countries like Austria and France has improved only very slightly (compared to countries like Sweden, Norway, Finland and the Netherlands where the level of play is MUCH higher now that it used to be), and I have no doubt that this is because of the reasons Mr. Whitmore gives.

2. While in the U.S. people play limit hold'em, and more recently also no-limit hold'em, almost religiously, in some of the countries in Europe limit hold'em is far from popular. I am not one of them, but especially in England, Scotland and Ireland a large percentage of the poker players think that limit hold'em is "no poker" and a game for sissies. While these players are EXCELLENT in games like pot-limit Omaha, if you encounter them in a limit hold'em game, they will stand no chance. So, this might be what happens when you find lots of Europeans in a limit hold'em game on the Internet: they often don't know how to play, heck they might not even like the game. But put these same players in a big-bet game with deep money, then they are suddenly big favorites to get the dough. Still, because most Americans are smart enough not to play in these types of games while there are enough Europeans that WILL play in a limit hold'em game where they are a clear underdog, it may seem as if they don't know how to play. What they should have done was perform better game selection and stick to the games they are good at (big-bet money play with deep money, large buy-in big-bet tournaments).

Rolf Slotboom
www.acespeaks.cjb.net (http://www.acespeaks.cjb.net)

[Cpt Spaulding]

In truth 90% of the books out there are worthless anyway....They are put out to make money not educate. Another point not being made is that Americans are very competative in nature,so we thrive on this macho game. Most other countries are beyond such primative behavior. Another point is how many other countries have the WSOP being played on TV 4 times oa week? So we do get that advantage of watching the pros play.
America would probably win a world football tournament not because we speak english and most if not all how to books on the game are written in english...It is because its our game. I guess I fail to see the connection with speaking english and playing poker....

[Rolf Slotboom]

Hi Cpt,

You are correct that the competitive nature of Americans gives them a big edge. Also, in the U.S. poker has a LONG history (heck, you guys more or less invented the game) while in Europe I would say that something like 98% of the people has NEVER played poker in their entire lives.

But this doesn't take away that (at least in my opinion) having the availability of good reading material might help lift one's game from a low to at least a basic, decent level. And if certain groups are unable to read this material, then I guess it is quite likely that on average their game will be at a slightly lower level than the people who CAN read them.

Rolf Slotboom
www.acespeaks.cjb.net (http://www.acespeaks.cjb.net)

(BTW, regarding the TV-shows. While it's great to be able to watch these great tournament stars play in big no-limit hold'em events, I don't think this will be that helpful to improving one's low- or middle-limit hold'em cash game. Quite the contrary, for relatively inexperienced players, I think it may actually be quite harmful.)

[Cpt Spaulding]

I do understand and see your point on being able to read the information available on any subject would improve your abilities. No doubt in my mind there. However...I have read Stephen Hawking's book "A brief history of time"....Didn't understand well over half of it. Understood the words,but not the meaning intended....My point is...reading the material is one thing...Understanding and application is a whole other story....Many people will buy these books for the wrong reasons...Americans worry more about image and impressing others so they buy these books display them proudly but rarely use the information they provide. They will still play THIER game. You are forget how arrogant we can be. All this garbage aside...You are right having access to more info COULD give the advantage, but there's is no guarantee there. That is my stance.

I will admit I have several books on poker...Find that they can help my game if I can use the info at the table. Al's book says personality can dictate play style...So, changing the way you play isn't as easy as it seems...I feel I am rambling now so I end my thoughts there...

[poker-penguin]

I think it's more not having a culture of poker. I am easily the best poker player I know. It's a shame that this is because, excluding people I met on the Internet, I am the only poker player I know.

In the big bookshop downtown, there are maybe seven poker books, crammed together with blackjack and other gambling.
The best options there were a couple of two plus two essay collections (containing maybe three poker articles total). In terms of books actually about poker, well, Phil Helmuth's "Play poker like a whiner" was the most recent and useful.

Plus everyone knows, Americans are more cleverer than the rest of the world. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ACW]

[ QUOTE ]
In terms of books actually about poker, well, Phil Helmuth's "Play poker like a whiner" was the most recent and useful.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you check out www.amazon.fr (http://www.amazon.fr) it looks like this has just been translated into French. Maybe French players will start playing worse shortly /images/graemlins/cool.gif

There's poker on TV every night (two different shows on two channels) in the UK by the way, and our English is pretty good, so I think most of the comments about Europeans can't be applied to the British. It's true that poker's not a common family game over here though, although home games are quite popular as a "men's night out" pastime.

Casinos have spread rapidly in the last ten years due to relaxation of licensing guidelines, and there's talk right now about further liberalisation.

[Cpt Spaulding]

Show me where I said sensative..... My point was we are exposed to a wider variety of cultures than most...You are wrong about me giving any credit to the average american. I couldn't agree more. Most are complete morons. Further more...I was saying if we have any edge at all...This was the reason...I don't think we have an edge over anyone in poker. Talent should be judged on an individual basis...Not in general terms...I guess I wasn't clear before

[Cpt Spaulding]

Reading a site or a book doesn't make a person a better player....How many books did Doyle Brunson read when he was younger? Not many....I agree it doesn't hurt to read the info...Who would you rather play against..A person who has played thousands of hands? Or a person who has just read the books on it....I would choose #2...

[nothumb]

Jesus, are you just getting back to this now? I had completely forgotten about this thread.

I know a lot of people who have played thousands - if not tens of thousands - of hands, and I would gladly play against these people for any ammount of money. You see them all the time playing low-limit at Foxwoods and talking constantly. They suck.

Now, if I had to guess, without having seen the person play, and I got to know only the number of hands they had played and the number of books they had read, I might still pick players who have played 20,000 hands or more. Although if I knew someone had read Hellmuth's book, that might sway me. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I don't know what the hell you were talking about with the sensitive to other cultures thing. You flip-flop like John Kerry sometimes. Whatever, it doesn't matter.

NT

[Cpt Spaulding]

Yea it too me awhile to get back here...Been busy....

First of all...comparing me to John Kerry was not at all nice.... You said in a previous post that I was implying that Americans are more sensative...I was responding to that....
I think we have completely strayed from the original point of the thread here.....I guess it really doesn't matter.... One thing though...I have read Phils book, and I would sit at a table with you anytime you like...name the site you play at if you play online.....

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Correlating someone's proficiency in english + their being present at the poker table with their likelyhood of having read a poker book may be higher than for non-english speaking poker players, but that does not mean that most english speaking poker players HAVE read books. The fact is that most poker players HAVEN'T read books, and even those who have read them have often either not read the right ones, or read them and failed to apply the information correctly anyway. If english speaking players DO play poker better (overall) it is probably because the game is more popular amongst english speaking people, and they have more experience, not because of the high frequency of book learned players.

al

[Warren Whitmore]

I disagree:
If
A: People who study 2+2 books are better players than those who do not (on average). &
B: More people who are capable of studying the books are able to read English than those who are not able to read English.
Then
On average people who can read English have an advantage over those who can not.

[YKing]

It's true that many swedes are good at english. This is also true for norwegian, danish and dutch people. But you don't HAVE to know english to get a collage degree in sweden. It certainly helps tough, because many books are in english.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

The fact remains that at the average table I sit at (100-200$ no limit or 8-16, 6-12), usually an average of 1-2 people at the table have read books AT ALL, INCLUDING MYSELF. Many of those who HAVE read books are somewhat better than non-readers, but still obviously fail to play many common situations correctly. If you are playing in the US, virtually everyone speaks and reads english anyway. Maybe they do play worse overseas, but I don't see that being able to speak english correlates to book learning and general better play.

al

[PhilipJ]

[ QUOTE ]
The joke, I've heard....but the setup: "No joke, but here's a good one" is priceless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I laughed my booger out on this one.

[Warren Whitmore]

I string is walking down the street and decided to drop into an unfamiliar bar for a beer. After ordering a bouncer approaches him and says hey you! Are you a string? He says yes and the bouncer says we dont like your type, and throws him into the street.
The next day the string is walking with his girlfriend past the same bar and she says hey hon lets go in for a quick beer. He says no way, they dont like us string types in there I was thrown out just yesterday. She says just relax and let me do all the talking. They both sit right up front in the bar and she hops up on the bar and does a seductive dance right infront of her boyfriend. Tying herself into knots and everything! The bouncer comes over and says hey are you two strings? And she says I'm afraid knot.

[Greg J]

(BTW, regarding the TV-shows. While it's great to be able to watch these great tournament stars play in big no-limit hold'em events, I don't think this will be that helpful to improving one's low- or middle-limit hold'em cash game. Quite the contrary, for relatively inexperienced players, I think it may actually be quite harmful.)

I am convinced that the popularity of the WPT and WSOP on TV has made pretty much every regular poster on this board money. People raising with A/crap offsuit in any position is very VERY nice for us. I mean if Gus Hansen does it, it must be a good thing right! They don't consider the fact he did it against 4 opponents in a no limit game on the button, not UTG in a low limit full ring game. CHA CHING!

Good observation.

Greg