I played this one like I was in a coma

[SinCityGuy]

Mirage 10/20

I openraise UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Folded to the CO, who appears to be a fairly solid player. He calls, and everyone else folds.

Two to the flop for 5 SB's.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I bet, he calls.

Two to the turn for 3.5 BB's.

Turn: T/images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check, he checks.

River:

9/images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check, he checks.

I'm expecting some harsh criticism on this one.

[Ulysses]

Oh, oh, me first!! Bet the turn.

[mike l.]

"Two to the turn for 3.5 BB's."

this puts in all in perspective. i think you played it fine. poker sucks.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, oh, me first!! Bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me second! Bet the river.

[cero_z]

Hi Clarkmeister,
You're a sick man.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Clarkmeister,
You're a sick man.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks!

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
"Two to the turn for 3.5 BB's."

this puts in all in perspective. i think you played it fine. poker sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

i also hate poker. now if only i was a loser, i'd have no reason to play /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
i think you played it fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

The turn check is bad, the river check is worse. At the very least, he played the hand worse than fine.

[nummerfire]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Clarkmeister,
You're a sick man.

[/ QUOTE ]



I also thought this first time i read this advice (betting with a four flush on board).

30 Big bets later, i have come around.

Kim

[SinCityGuy]

It's bad enough that I sit there like a mannequin for hours without playing a hand. But in this case, I played the hand like a mannequin.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, oh, me first!! Bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Olé!!!

[skp]

I am not so sure that a river bet would be good *given* that hero already checked the turn. I would like the river bet more if hero had bet the turn (which he clearly should have).

The chief difference lies in the fact that in the first scenario, hero is more likely to induce a bluff (or perceived value bet from a lesser hand).

To put it in another way:

1. A river bet may or may not get a call from a worse hand (but I, like you, am continually amazed by the number of weak river calls people make)

2. It's highly unlikely that a river bet will cause a better hand to fold although I suppose a guy might fold a rivered straight (but I highly doubt it for the resaons given in point 1 above).

3. A river bet may see you get raised (or worse, bluff raised). I guess we don't have to worry about being bluff raised and would in fact welcome it if our plan is to always call but that plan of action can't be right. The bet would also be okay if you know that against this opponent, you can be extremely confident that if he raises, he has the nuts and that you can therefore fold.

4. A river check on the other hand may get the other guy to check a straight or no-nut spade (which then saves you a bet as he would have called your bet).

5. A river check may induce a bluff (particularly since hero has already told the other guy that he does not have an Ace with his turn check. A turn check and river check by hero signifies real weakness which should tempt the other guy to bluff).


This whole analysis goes out the window if hero had bet the turn. Then, he should bet the river as well as points 4 and 5 have less force.

Overall, I hate the turn check. But given the turn check, I think that a river check is slightly better than a river bet.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I would like the river bet more if hero had bet the turn (which he clearly should have).

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I'm somewhat on the fence wrt the river bet after the turn check, but I think I lean towards betting. But I definitely like that river bet a lot more after a turn bet for pretty much the reasons you outline in your post.

[Clarkmeister]

It's an easy bet either way.

In the case that we checked the turn, we can be pretty sure that he neither has a spade, nor is inclined to try and buy the pot. Given that, there's really no reason to not value bet the river. Maybe he stumbles into a queen, but so be it. I don't see bluff induction working in this spot, particularly at the Mirage in the 10-20. Bet, hope he doesn't have a queen, and expect to be called by a worse hand more often than not.

[AviD]

At least your avatar puts the hand into perspective. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[skp]

Hm...I don't know...if you can't expect to induce a bluff on a scary looking board after Hero has shown weakness twice, when can we put the bluff induction principle to use?

Also, I am not sure how we can conclude after the river card that our opponent does not have *one* spade based on his turn check. I think that the best we can conclude is that he does not have an Ace (which reduces the number of worse hands that he could call our river bet with).

I am not sold that it's an easy river bet. But the fact that you do does give me pause. I may have to think about it some more.

[Clarkmeister]

The only thing funnier than SinCityGuy having the Mannequin avatar is the fact that he was glossed "The Mannequin" by a 70-yr old tight old man who looked like Donald Rumsfeld.

[J_V]

I owe you more than a drink for this play. I think people are folding flushes to me. I NEVER get called.

Your bet on the river is a value bet plus the small chance he folds a better hand right? The old Sklansky, two-way bet.

It's a reflex now, out of position, fourth flush card....BET!!!!

[Clarkmeister]

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Ulysses]

I wonder how many 2+2 lurkers are seeing Clark at places like the Commerce and giving him excessive amounts of action due to his well-documented ram-and-jam style.

[Clarkmeister]

Shhhh

[Gabe]

Now I get it! I never thought of that.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
The only thing funnier than SinCityGuy having the Mannequin avatar is the fact that he was glossed "The Mannequin" by a 70-yr old tight old man who looked like Donald Rumsfeld.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clarkmeister had a lot of fun with that one. After Rummy pinned the nickname on me, Clarkmeister started off with a series of one-liners like "You'd better start playing some hands, or else you're going to get blinded off."

[Lawrence Ng]

Sid,

What if the other player bets the river? Should hero call or fold?

[AviD]

Dissed by a 70 year old...now THAT'S a poker game! Deal me in! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[SinCityGuy]

He had Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif for the straight.

Failing to bet the turn was just pathetic on my part. Also, I'm going to start utilizing the Clarkmeister Flush Theorem on these rivered 4-flush boards.

[skp]

Call. No use inducing a bluff if you are going to fold :-)

[fsuplayer]

Just curious, do you think you lost the hand bc you didnt bet the turn and/or river. I think many opponents would def. call the turn and would then make a crying call on the river with the straight.

What do you think?

fsuplayer

[SinCityGuy]

He didn't have the straight on the turn. He had 2nd pair and a gutshot draw. He might have called, but he might have folded also.

[Dante]

[ QUOTE ]
He didn't have the straight on the turn. He had 2nd pair and a gutshot draw. He might have called, but he might have folded also.

[/ QUOTE ]

actually, with a board of AJT8, he had a double-gutter as any K or 9 makes him a straight.

[andyfox]

"At the very least, he played the hand worse than fine."

Sklanskyesque syntax of an Elysiumatic thought.

[ike]

Nonetheless, on the 3flush board he's probably throwing this one away. And if he's not you're still missing a valuebet.