Can't find the release

Can you find the release here? I knew it was there somewhere, but unfortunately I just couldn't find it when it counted.


20-40

A sometimes over-aggressive player raised UTG. A solid player made it 3 bets. I called $60 cold on the button with QQ.


**Did I pass up a better option? It may or may not matter, but the 3-bettor appeared to be slightly uncomfortable at this limit, which means his play is normaly very tight and straight forward. JJ could go into the muck, as well as AKo, but it didn't quite feel right to throw away two queens here. To be honest, it never feels 100% right to fold two queens in the pocket for me before the flop. Maybe it's because it's limit hold'em. Maybe it's because this time, UTG had over-aggressive tendencies. Maybe it's because AK,and JJ are still strong possibilities from the 3-bettor. How about capping it at 4 bets?


The flop came J86r.


UTG bet, the solid player raised.


**Can I fold now? I might have, except that UTG's bet didn't matter much to me. He could easily be betting thin air here.


Because of this (or in spite of it?), I made it 3 bets. UTG folded, the solid player called.


The turn was an off 5.


The solid player checked and I checked behind him.


** I wasn't interested in "finding out" where I'm at, and I wasn't worried about overcards falling. I strongly suspected I was beat, most likely by AA,KK or JJ. Is there any reason to bet?


The river paired the 5 and he bet.


** I want to fold, but the pot's big and there's the ever so slight chance he has AJs or was jonesing from one too many cups of coffee and had overplayed TT.


I called and he showed me JJ. I wasn't at all surprised. In hindsight, I might've saved money on the flop by capping it pre-flop. Also, I stated that UTG's bet on the flop didn't matter to me, and this is true. But the solid player's raise, should mean a great deal, and I neglected to heed the warning signs. On the other hand, I suppose losing $140 ain't bad considering no overcard to my pocket pair ever came. What do you think? Could I have saved $$ on this hand?

I lost $160 on the hand. There of course was also the possibility he had QQ with me, which was another slight reason for my call on the end.

If you are playing, then you need to 4-bet. Try and squeeze Aggressive Player out of the hand. Otherwise, I think mucking might be better. It is close, however. Mucking QQ sucks, I agree. I would probabaly 4-bet and hope to get it heads up.


On the flop, there isn't a hand that scared player will 3-bet preflop, and raise again on the flop into a 3-bet cold caller that you can beat. I think this is the perfect time to eject. How many times is that sinking feeling in your stomach wrong in these types of heads up situations? I'm guessing not many.


You don't even consider TT until the river. Classic PutHimOnAHandICanBeat syndrome. You got your "free" shot at beating him, now let it go.

If it makes you feel any better, I probably lose a bit more with this hand than you did. I'd make it 4 bets preflop and bet/raise the flop, merely calling the rest of the way if I get played back at by the tight scared player on the flop (although possibly folding if I get check raised on the turn, depending just how tight/scared I think this guy is).


Preflop, this seems like a raise or fold situation to me, and like you I don't feel comfortable with a fold unless the guy has a 3 betting frequency of around once every 4 hours (he should get AA-QQ about once every 2 hours at a typical 35 hands/hour table, but will be putting in the first raise (rather than a reraise) with some of them).


The flop is the only point where I think you might be able to release. You seem to have answered your own question when you said that even though the UTG bet didn't mean anything, the scared player raising should have said something. The J high flop is also some cause for concern as it lets one of the presumedly weakest 3 betting hands this opponent might have off the hook (pun unintentional /images/wink.gif). If you can't see this guy raising an AK or TT here, then it's definitely time to find a new battle. On the other hand, it's fairly rare to find opponents so tight or predictable, and it doesn't take much doubt (maybe he got frisky preflop with an AJs because he read the UTG raiser as obviously loose aggressive -- a preflop cap by you would probably have better defined his hand in this case) to make continuing a viable option. In the event you do decide to continue, I very much like your line of reraise the flop and check the turn.


Bottom line, this seems like a pretty uncommon and perhaps marginal situation to me, so I doubt you made any errors which would effect your long term earn here.

I don't think you can really sweat this sort of beat too hard. If you lost an extra bet, oh well. You're not clairvoyant.


I might've bet behind him on the turn and folded to a check raise (he's not holding TT or A/J, based on what you've said), or even to a bet on the river (as he's not going to be naked bluffing if he's uncomfortable with the stakes).


But, alas, it wouldn't have mattered anyway.

Preflop capping is a bad idea I think, but not as bad as folding - I like the call.


Flop - Now you can be almost certain you are beat.

If the possible hands he raises with are JJ-AA, AJs or better, and AK (these are reasi=onable, though AJs is a little generous), there are at most 3 ways your hand is better than his, one tie, and 15 ways it's not. Combine this with the outs they may have if you are best and you shoudl fold. I doubt the 3 bet came from an AJs - that is really aggressive at a full table, and out of character from such a player.


I think the fold on the flop is pretty clear against these players. You will pay 2.5 big bets plus to see the end, and your hand won't be ggod often enough to warrant it.


I think situations like this are common enough to be important, especially since the hand reading can be so precise. People can figure out what you have when you call 3 cold or cap pre-flop, and you can often do the same (by the way, I don't cap aces in a 3 way pot, either).


There was a hand I played with kings and a J high flop. I bet and one opponent raised and another called. I knew the raiser had either aces or queens, and was 90% sure it was queens. So I waited for the turn to check-raise. But a Q came and I checked and folded. In your situation, the J - x - x flop and the action are a neon sign that you are in deep trouble against this player.


Better luck.


Dan Z.

I don't think capping the betting preflop is any less revealing of your hand strength here than calling the 3 bets cold, plus you have a very real shot at the best hand (as long as he would reraise with at least JJ AK AQs as well as AA-QQ, which seems reasonable enough to me), will take control of the betting with last position, and may pick up fractional EV for the extra encouragment you give the blinds to leave dead money in the pot. If the blinds come in for the extra bets anyway, that probably doesn't hurt you either as unless they have AA-KK, they should either share high card outs with one of the other players (lessening the collective outs against you by leaving fewer overcards in the deck and also by sharing outs while increasing your pontential payout) or have a dominated hand.


You seem to be saying you would never cap the betting preflop in an anticipated 3 way pot (at least that's what I read when you say you won't do it with aces), but that seems overly conservative to me when dealing with potential isolation reraises against a sometimes overaggressive opener. Anyway, I would like to hear your counterarguments as I think a preflop cap here has a lot going for it.

The reason you do not want to cap in this situation (and perhaps saying "never" is too strong).


Against our 3 - bettor, we are facing JJ-AA, AK, AQs (2 cases), and a tiny chance at AQ or AJs or TT. I know, when I first move to 20-40, I played in a rock-like fashion and was intimidated by the stakes a little.

Against this array of hands, our QQ is not too exciting. And if we are ahead, our capping will ensure anyone who has any hope of winning will stay to the end.


I also think the capping makes your opponents harder to read. They will now react very passively to you without AA or a set, and if you do not cap, the UTG will not overplay/bluff his hand, and the tight player will have you betting his KK for him. Maybe I am playing it out wrong, but I think capping offers very little with this hand.


If you do not cap here, then the tight player will know you have 1 of 2 hands - AKs or QQ. He will also entertain AKo and JJ. Notice how narrow this range is, and how accurate it is. I would only play the QQ-AA and AKs against this combo of players (and most).


So if we cap it with all of these hands, I think we are making things very difficult later, and if we cap some but not all, we essentially expose our hand - and if you follow the advice "With AKs on the button, raise and reraise no matter what"

(can't remember where I read that) then what hand do you cold call 3 with - QQ, and that's it.


There are certainly exceptions to this, for example, you can cap it with the lesser pairs you play to get an initail raiser or limper to drop a

hand like AQ. I made my fisrt such AQ fold the other day. But this will not happen in the situation described.


And if the pot is multi-way, there will be more value to capping AA and maybe KK, as the deception lost can be less important than the money gained pre-flop, but this depends on the situation. I just feel like the info leak is too great in a 3 handed pot to push a marginal at best preflop edge.


Comments welcome.


Dan Z.

I agree with your comments about the info leak, which is why I would virtually never call the 3 cold here (I guess I should have said that earlier). I think we just went for different solutions to the same problem, and yours is to always smoothcall while mine is to always reraise.


I'm not so sure that your preflop edge here is as marginal as you maintain. If we use your guidelines of the 3 bettor holding AA-JJ (18 ways, if we ignore the tying QQ) AK (16 ways) or AQs (2 ways) with a 25% chance of AQo (10 ways * 0.25) AJs (4 ways * 0.25) or TT (6 ways * 0.25), then you should be leading here about 29 times of the 41, a 21% edge. Of course you have the other player to worry about as well, but this might not be all bad if he holds an ace type hand which could leave your opponents with fewer collective outs to beat you if they share cards. This might not be the thrilling edge you have with AA, but you should still win more than your fair share, (probably) have some dead blind money in the pot, and (probably) have last position to boot (which I think sways any maginalness of this situation into a tangible advantage).


Also, I would think of the passivity induced by capping which you mention to be an advantage (especially when in last position with a hand like QQ), since this leaves you in control of the betting and able to save bets and/or take free cards by checking.


In the end though, I'm guessing the decision to follow your line (never cap) versus mine (always cap) isn't a major one.